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Get Over The Fear of Hitting Send and Annoying People with Chase Dimond - Honest Ecommerce Ep. 162

Chase is currently a Partner at Structured — a top ecommerce marketing agency, where he runs the email team. Since June of 2018, we’ve helped our clients send over a billion emails resulting in over $50 million in email attributable revenue. 

A few of our previous and current clients include: Orgain, The Chive, Original Grain, and CrossNet. 

In This Conversation We Discuss: 

  • [00:00] Intro
  • [01:02] Chase Dimond’s “claim to fame”
  • [01:57] Where Chase Dimond’s passion started
  • [04:48] Personalization is really important
  • [05:40] SMS and email in tandem
  • [06:15] AMP for emails in the future
  • [06:38] Plain text emails are still useful
  • [07:01] Do brands send too much email?
  • [09:26] Chase Dimond going through the metrics
  • [10:38] Coming up with topics for email
  • [13:12] Comparing your emails to “big dogs”
  • [15:01] Working with different types of clients
  • [15:20] Stay true to your own brand
  • [15:59] Don’t be afraid to hit send
  • [16:42] You learn so much from your audience by sending
  • [17:54] Sponsor: Electric Eye electriceye.io
  • [18:14] Sponsor: Mesa apps.shopify.com/mesa
  • [18:58] Sponsor: Gorgias gorgias.grsm.io/honest
  • [20:25] Sponsor: Rewind rewind.io/honest
  • [20:57] Sponsor: Klaviyo klaviyo.com/honest
  • [21:44] Why brands use design-oriented emails
  • [23:48] The balance between text and design
  • [24:58] How to incorporate SMS in email marketing
  • [29:02] The common mistakes in attribution
  • [30:03] SMS and Email is for building relationships
  • [31:48] Holistic approach to marketing channels
  • [33:07] Marketers wear 2 hats and get confused sometimes
  • [35:44] Where to find Chase Dimond


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Chase Clymer  

Before we get started, if you're enjoying this content, you can do us a favor by subscribing to our YouTube channel and ringing the bell.

That will let the algorithm know that you like this content and it will help us produce more.

Your main advantage against these massive companies is your speed and your ability to iterate and try different things.

Chase Dimond  

Your email doesn't have to be perfect. But if it's perfect for your audience and it has the right boxes checked, then you're gonna win.

Chase Clymer  

Welcome to Honest Ecommerce, a podcast dedicated to cutting through the BS and finding actionable advice for online store owners. I'm your host, Chase Clymer. And I believe running a direct-to-consumer brand does not have to be complicated or a guessing game. 

On this podcast, we interview founders and experts who are putting in the work and creating real results. 

I also share my own insights from running our top Shopify consultancy, Electric Eye. We cut the fluff in favor of facts to help you grow your Ecommerce business.

Chase Clymer  

Hey, everybody, welcome back to another episode of Honest Ecommerce. I'm your host Chase Clymer. And today we welcome to the show, Chase Dimond. How are you doing? Chase?

Chase Dimond  

Doing well. Thanks, man. How are you?

Chase Clymer  

I'm doing fantastic. Happy New Year. Thank you so much for coming back on. Our original episode is "done goofed". I don't know what happened to it. 

But Chase was nice enough to come back on and we're gonna chat. So for those that are unaware, I guess, what would you say your claim to fame in the industry is?

Chase Dimond  

Claim to fame? Oh, man, I don't think I'm anywhere near famous. But at this point, I've sent north of a couple billion emails and done north of $100 million in email revenue for clients in the past 4 or so years. 

And then maybe the fact that if you follow me on Twitter, you get non stop notifications left, right, and center. 

Chase Clymer  

Yeah, you definitely got a nice following of passionate individuals. And it's not only that, you are... Your agency does amazing things with helping your clients do email revenue. 

And don't worry, everyone listening, we're gonna dive into some of that stuff here in a bit. But you're also very passionate about entrepreneurship in helping others build businesses.

Chase Dimond  

Yeah. And I think it stems from how I got started. I got started in marketing through necessity. When I was 13 years old, I got diagnosed with Crohn’s disease. I basically was sick for the entirety of a year misdiagnosis after misdiagnosis. 

So at 14 years old, I basically taught myself guerilla marketing. I was taking ads out in the paper. I was doing restaurant fundraisers. I was doing walks. I was calling friends. I was using AIM to message them, sending emails. 

I really learned email through that regard of raising awareness and fundraising. So I've really come from --I don't want to say like-- this altruistic place but really just this place of wanting to help others. And obviously, it helps me in return. 

But I really do care about people and want to see them be their best self. And I just happen to talk about email and agency. And I also talk about my family to sound the other way. So I don't know a lot, but I will share what I'm learning.

Chase Clymer  

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So the first thing, if you guys aren't following Chase on Twitter, if you're not into the Twitter game, Chase is a good first follow in the Ecommerce space. 

So we are recording this first week of January 2022. So we just came out of Black Friday, Cyber Monday and all that stuff. For a very tactical specific question, what's working now in the Ecommerce retention marketing atmosphere? 

What are you seeing working for your clients? What trends are [working or] whatnot?

Chase Dimond  

Yeah, I want to preface like... I think when I think about email, everyone's always looking for that silver bullet, right? Like, "What's that secret that you're doing that's gonna just take me from zero to hero?" 

And the reality is there really isn't that much that we're doing that's rocket science. To do email really well, it's A, being really consistent. And B, knowing which levers to pull, right. 

So it's making sure that you're sending enough campaigns per week. For some brands that might be 2 campaigns a week. For other brands that might be upwards of 4 or 5 campaigns per week. 

It's really making sure that on the automation --the flow side of the house-- that you've got coverage across pre and post purchase. 

Everything on a pre side - from like the welcome series for non-buyers, to the abandoned cart, to the abandoned checkout, the “back in stock”, all the way to the post purchase side - like the customer thank you, the cross-sells, the upsells, the win-backs, the breakup series… 

So doing those 2 things and obviously, knowing which segments to hit when you send campaigns really is the fundamentals of email. 

And if you do that, that's 80% of the lift. That's gonna drive a majority of your revenue. So that's like the basis. I'm not going to teach you anything that's rocket science or silver bullets, I'm going to teach you to pick the right segments to send the right number of campaigns and make sure that you have the funnel filled out with all the automations. That's one. 

Two, I was thinking about.. I've talked to my team and even shared on social media what some of my thoughts were around 2020 on some of the predictions and challenges and what to focus on. In my thoughts here. When I was 14... I was 14.5. I was 15. 

It feels like the amount of data we have as marketers is diminishing by the day yet personalization is just as important, if not more important. And how do you do that? You really have to aggregate as much data as you can back into your ESP. Not an email service provider.

Klaviyo, Omnisend, Privy, whoever you use, tying as much data back in as possible, everything from how you actually acquired that subscriber organic, affiliate, paid, search, whatever that might be all the way through... 

What actions are they or are they not taking? Are they active on your homepage? They were viewing this product. They added that product to cart. They started checkout, they made a purchase, they're reading this blog post.

We really have to do as much as we can to aggregate that data so that it's usable. So personalization is just as important, if not more important in 2022. 

It's just a little bit more difficult for us to actually leverage and utilize, because we're seeing less and less data out of certain platforms. 

I think SMS is a channel that's going to be even more prevalent. I think, over the past year and a half or 2 years, the increase in the adoption of it's been through the roof. 

And I think SMS paired with email is going to be a massive channel. And I think you have to use the 2 in tandem. Everyone I feel like always talks about it being an "or" situation. I think it's an "and". 

Outside of that, with some of the work that we're doing, with a tool that I'm building with other technology available in the marketplace, I think designing emails that have an experience is super important. And that's beyond just a gift. A gift is cool, but like, it goes much further. 

So there's this thing called AMP, which is accelerated mobile pages, which allows emails to interact much like a landing page, where you can actually scroll between a product carousel within an email, you can leave a review within an email, you can fill out a survey within an email. 

And in the future, probably not too distant future, you could actually probably even transact within an email. So those are some of my high level thoughts. And the last thing I'll throw in there, as I talked about design, and that's super important. 

But also think on the same note, you have to mix in more plain text emails. So it's really when you design emails, making sure that they are designing for a specific experience in mind. 

And then when you're not doing beautifully designed emails, mixing in plain text - Emails from the founders, the community spokesperson, whoever that might be, to be more personal and human and potentially have a better chance at inboxing. So that was a lot. But that's kind of what I've got for you.

Chase Clymer  

Oh no, dude. I wrote down a bunch of questions here. So I'm just going to go from top to bottom. So the first thing that you mentioned is "There's no silver bullet. It really comes down to consistency." 

So within consistency, you find this cadence that works for your brand. It might be once a month, then once a week, and then multiple times a week. 

I think that a lot of brands are scared to send too much. So is there a metric that you should be looking for, as far as how often you should be sending something to look forward to know if you can send more or maybe start to send less?

Chase Dimond  

Yeah, I think [I'd] answer that question with 2 ways. One is, I think, brands always think they're sending too much, but in actuality, they're probably sending too infrequently. They're not sending enough. 

And then two, the way in which you do that is really simple. You start with one campaign per week. You're gonna want to look at things like the positive engagement rates. That's things like the opens, the opens, the clicks, the conversions

And on the flip side, those negative engagement things. It's like unsubscribes, marked as spams, and bounces. And you'll have to look to see. 

Based on your industry, based on your historical data, and which segment you're hitting, what's your open rates, your click through what all these metrics are. 

And if they're in line with industry average, if they're looking good, if they look healthy, then you send a second per week. And you keep going down this adding one additional per week until you find this friction point. 

And that friction point is when the positive things decrease: The open rates decrease, the clickthroughs decrease, conversions decrease, and the negative things increase. The mark for spam increases, the bounce increases, the unsubscribe increases. We don't want that to happen. 

So if that happens, I'd say when you send 4 emails per week, that equilibrium for you most often is probably sending three per week, right? Some weeks, you're gonna send 2. 

Other weeks, you might send four, but on average, you should aim for that 3 because you want to maximize the number of campaigns that you're sending while minimizing the churn 

But you don't want to send too frequently so that you have no churn. Churn is actually a decent thing. 

People get scared to [have] unsubscribe, but if you have no unsubscribes, you're not sending enough. 

You're not sending things that people actually are going to resonate with. You're being vanilla. You're in this no man's land.

Chase Clymer  

Oh yeah. That's fantastic. So, I had another email marketer on the podcast and I am drawing a blank and I'm... Hopefully we can find it and put it in the show notes. But he had an interesting take on this. 

And he was like, "We really wanted to [have] just one metric to look at." He's like, "If your unsubscribes are under 1%, you can probably send more emails."

Chase Dimond  

Yeah. Yeah. So off the top of my head to kind of go through all the metrics, like, you know, again, open rates are a little bit kind of a gray thing right now. 

But historically, a 20% open rate or higher has been a good metric to see how that looks. On the clickthrough... 

Obviously, the clickthrough is going to vary drastically, depending on industry segment, campaign content, whatnot. So that's a little bit harder to get one for. 

On the spam, I think you're allowed to have 1 out of 1000. So it's like 0.01% or something. You're able to have a really low number of spam. That's the most delicate. 

Bounces, yeah, typically 1% or lower. I think a lot of our campaigns, at least both my personalized letters and some clients are like 0.2%, 0.5%. Doesn't typically go above half a percent. But I think upwards of 1%, 1.5% percent is pretty accurate. 

Bounce... Again, you want that to be sub 1% or 2%. So each metric has a slightly different acceptability. 

Marked as spam is the most strict because obviously, spam complaints are the most serious. And things like open rates, if you're at 18%, open rate, you're not a 20, you're [still] pretty close. There's a big difference between a 5% and 10% and 20% open rate, right?

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. No, and that was great. Thanks for diving in all the rest of those metrics for us. Now with... A lot of the listeners are gonna be like, "Dang, Chase and Chase are both telling me I need to send more emails." 

And the next hurdle for them --and I hear this from my clients, and I'm [sure if you] hear from your clients-- and it's just like, "We'd love to send more emails, we just don't have the capacity to think of more things to do." So what is your advice there?

Chase Dimond  

Yeah. Dude, there's so much inspiration around us. You could literally... An ad that you get that has an interesting UGC model. UGC, not a specific model. But the way that they actually display the UGC, that might be an email. 

A conversation that you had with your friend or family member that might be interesting, there might be a way to tie that in. 

There's these overarching 7 to 9 buckets of campaign contents that we look to send. And it's really important that you diversify the campaign content. Some of those buckets... 

Most people know about these first few holidays. There's a holiday in every given month. There's also some made up holidays, right? If you sell products for pets, there's National Dog Day, National Cat Day, National Sibling Day, whatever it might be. 

Aside from that people on a monthly, quarterly, semi annual, or annual basis, dropping new products or new collections. That's an email. You can even have multiple emails for that. 

You could have an email that hypes the product launch, an email announcing the product launch, and then an email reminding the product launch. That's 3 emails right there.

Going back to the holiday, you could tease that you're having a holiday sale, you can announce the holiday sale, and then you can have the sale ending. So you really can get creative and come up with a few ideas and extract as much juice from it. 

Outside of that, you've got things like, if you ever partner with a celebrity or an influencer, doing a celebrity or an influencer-based email, curating the content of the product or whatever it is that you'd work with them on. 

Current events. Maybe there's something happening in the sports world, or this world or that world that you want to talk about. 

There's things like testimonials, social proof, UGC. 

There's blog content, there's education content. There's gifting, there's giveaways... So I don't know how many just names but there's like 7 to 9 overarching buckets that we really focus on. And there's almost more... 

I actually have the inverse problem. My problem is there are so many things to send? What in the world do you send? Or it sounds like a lot of people probably have the idea of "I don't know what to send, there's nothing to send." 

I'm on the other side, "There's so much to send. How do you pick just one?" And that's why you send 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 emails a week. And you go between sales, and then products, and then holidays, and then UGC, and whatnot.

Chase Clymer  

That was a fantastic answer. So my follow up there would be with how do you combat perfection, perfectionism when it comes to email marketing? 

I feel like there are people who are constantly comparing what they're doing to the big dogs in the D2C space. 

So what would you say to help people that are waiting to press send, I guess?

Chase Dimond  

Yeah. Different for me personally. All the big brands I follow. A lot of them are just so basic. And I know we talked about there's no silver bullets, but they're basic in the sense that their stuff really isn't exciting, or entertaining, or interesting? 

A lot more of these smaller 6, 7, maybe low 8-figure brands are the ones that are way more innovative and creative and fun. 

So I think just because of... Big brands are always sending one image emails and they have no stuff behind it. And it doesn't load, it doesn't render...

Chase Clymer  

Isn't accessible, can't search for it in your... 

Chase Dimond  


Chase Clymer  

Whatever email platform you're on.

Chase Dimond  

Yeah. So look not to knock big brands, obviously. They're probably doing certain things for some reason. And other times, they just probably don't know best practices. So there's a lot to learn. 

But there's also a lot that these big brands are just not doing right at all. And I'd look at some of these fast growing 7 [to] 8-figure brands that are just crushing it and more benchmarking compared to them. 

That being said, you are different from the big brands and what's going to work for you is actually different from what's going to work for them. 

I feel like a couple years ago, that used to be this whole thing of like you wanted to only buy from Nordstrom and Macy’s and these trustworthy brands.

And now today I feel like through the pandemic and everything else, everything is about shopping local, supporting small business and people.

I think people before used to pretend that they were way bigger. And now they're leaning into the fact that they're smaller. 

I think all of those things are advantages. When we work with clients, every client we work with is slightly different in terms of how they approach things. 

We've got some clients on one end of the spectrum that want every single email to be pixel perfect. And we go through 6 rounds of iterations and they're still not happy, even though it's 99.9% of the way there. 

And we've got other clients that are just like, "Hey, we trust you. you guys know what you're doing. We care more about conversion than we do branding and beautiful-looking emails." So it really is a case-by-case basis, at the end of the day. 

You have no idea what these other brands' metrics are or aren't. So it's almost like "What got you to open? What got you to click? What got you to buy? What's that feeling? What's that psychology?" 

And do the best that you can to emulate and resonate that. Obviously, don't copy it. But take the good from this brand, and the good from this brand, the good from this brand. 

And [don't] take the bad from those brands. And really come up with this email that has most of the goods and fewer of the bads that really is for you. 

So I just think like, if you want to be a copycat brand, there's no point to even do any of this. 

If you want to be different and you built the brand with a mission and a vision, stay true to that. Who cares what other people are doing. 

When they zig, you zag. Don't copy them.

Chase Clymer  

No, that's fantastic advice. And what you said there is, you can't really compare yourself to these other brands because you don't know what is happening on the other end of that. 

And what I have been saying a lot lately to our clients and prospects and stuff like that. It's like, emails are almost... 

With ads, it's like, "We don't know how it's gonna perform. Just press send and find out. If it sucked, okay. We learned not to do that again." 

I think being scared of pressing send is a bad habit to have just because... 

I've gotten so many emails or even from big brands where they're just like, "Ignore that last one. We goofed. Here's the real one." And no one cares.

Chase Dimond  

Yeah. 100%. And to your point, when you press send, you learn so much about your subject lines, your offers, your creative and more, in particular, your audience. And that's really the big difference. 

It's like, you might have 2 beauty brands that sell makeup, but their audiences might be so different. One might be for women over 50. And one might be for women 18 to 25. 

And the way in which those folks are going to interact and engage with your emails, it's going to be so different. 

For the audience that's 50 and older, you might want to go more like plain text and really large fonts. 

That way it's accessible and readable on iPads or whatever that they're using, Outlook, Yahoo, you want to make sure that they're able to read it and engage, interact, and it's a little bit more straightforward. 

Whereas with a younger demo that sells a similar product for different audiences, you might want to be more design heavy, more gifts, more animation, a little bit more clever and witty and fun. 

So I think that's the other thing, too, is you can look at all these brands, but without having their demo be the same as your demo. Doesn't matter what they do versus what you do. 

As long as you're doing what's on brand and what feels right for your specific audience, I think that's the most important part. Email doesn't have to be perfect. 

But if it's perfect for your audience, and it has the right boxes checked, then you're going to win.

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Chase Clymer  

You mentioned this a bit before. And it resonated with me. And maybe you remember a funny story, which was... It is a little less popular these days, because of the advent of  builders within email platforms. 

But basically everyone was comparing themselves to these big brands that would just basically have a huge one image email. And it would be... You could just make it look like whatever you wanted. And when we were talking about that I remembered once. 

I saw an offer --in one of these emails actually-- that I wanted. And so I went back after I'd archived it. And I was trying to search for this thing. 

And because the image was just one big image, it actually wasn't searching for the text that I read in the email and I literally couldn't find it and they lost the sale from it. So that's just like... 

That's one detriment of having this whole one large image design within your emails. So I got maybe one or two questions here. It's like, well,  what is your recommendation with fully designed out emails like that? 

Is that something that you'd recommend these days? Or is there a different way that you tell people to approach a more design-oriented email?

Chase Dimond  

Yeah. Look, I understand why people do that. They do it for a few reasons. One is you have a lot more control of how your design actually looks. You can have custom fonts, your exact colors, everything is going to look the same across devices. 

You have more control of the visual aspect. Also, I think there are 2 other reasons. One is people just don't know that it's not a best practice. And two or maybe three would be the fact that  they're just time constrained. 

So they want control, they don't know that is bad, or they maybe know that it's not the best, but yet they have no better process. And they are doing 6 other things. And it's just an email. 

I think a lot of people are like "It's just an email. Who cares? I've got way more important pressing things to do outside of the inbox." 

So I think that's why people do it. In my opinion, again, I get it. It's not a best practice. I don't recommend it. 

But if that's all that you can do, and that's the difference between you sending emails or not, do it. By all means, do it. It's better than not doing it all. 

In a perfect world, I think, there's a couple ways to do it. One would be to, custom coded email. It's not just an image. It's custom coded. But again, that has barriers to entry. It's a little bit more technical. 

The other aspect is leveraging blocks. Using modular templates. And there's obviously going to be an image block, there's going to be a text block, but in this case because it's modular, the text itself is actually going to be alive. It's not going to just be a text on an image where... 

There you're going to have now a nice ratio between images and text. Different platforms, different folks say different things. 

There's this company called Spam Assassin that says, you want 60% text, 40% images. Other people say, 60% images, 40% text is fine. 

So pretty much you want to be as one to one as possible between text and images. And it's not always the case in some emails. You're gonna have 75% text, 25% imagery or 75% imagery, 25% text. But that's the best practice. 

Having modulars and blocks that are images and text based and button based, that will be better. And then obviously I mentioned before, even sending emails that are plain text emails is also something I think folks should mix in.

Chase Clymer  

You touched on so many cool things already within this podcast. And just to kind of highlight some of them. The first one being is just press send. And then the other one is you probably aren't sending enough. 

So press send more and then experiment with what you're doing. Try new kinds of motivations behind the emails, conversational or  product. It doesn't always have to be a sale, it doesn't always have to be a holiday. We also touched on a little bit of SMS. 

So let's talk about kind of, you know, what is the difference between... You said, it isn't one or the other. It isn't email or SMS. It's email and SMS. 

So how do you want to paint the picture for people of how they can... If they don't have this in their current strategy, how should they bring it into their strategy?

Chase Dimond  

Yeah, full transparency. Email is my thing through and through. SMS is something that I understand at a high level. It's something we offer at the agency. So it's something that I'm actively learning. We've got someone that's better than me in SMS in that place. 

That being said, I think, on the SMS side, some of my learnings are a couple things. SMS obviously is a little bit more delicate of a channel. And what I mean by that is you shouldn't be sending 3 to 5 text messages a week. 

I think on those parts, we found 1 text, 2 texts, a week to be that sweet spot. Anything more than that, it's a little bit obtrusive. The one caveat is if you tell people ahead of time, that they should expect multiple texts or messages per week, before they opt in. 

Or as they opt in, then that's the caveat. In most cases, if you don't specify, you should expect maybe 1 text message a week to be sent potentially to. 

However, if you're going to say, "Yo Chase, just to give you a heads up, as you enter your phone number here, you can expect 3 texts a week from us or you can expect a daily text." 

If they have that info up front, then you're cool sending more. That's one. 

Two is I get... I think I get the question probably every couple days at this point... Like, "Why aren't you worried as an email marketer that SMS is going to take away from the revenue that you're showing? And this on the other?" 

And it's like, "Look, I think the more revenue that both channels provide, whether it's accurate, or it's misattribution, or not, the better. 

Our goal, when we work with folks, whether we're just email or email and SMS, is to help them lift up their own revenue. And if SMS plays a part in that, then that's great. 

So I think people are too worried about that, especially as they're offering one service or the other. They're worried that SMS is going to steal their attribution piece of the pie. And in some cases, it might, but in other cases, it's going to help lift conversion. 

I like SMS for things that are a lot more time sensitive, and, I guess, newsworthy, or important. Whereas email is much better for things that are longer form, obviously. There's some urgency and there's importance to emails. 

But I think leveraging text messages for a flash sale is a great one. I think leveraging text messages for, "Hey, important update about your shipping." Might be a good one. 

It's just something that's really important. Every time we think about sending a text message, before we press send, we ask ourselves something like, "Could this be an email? Should this be a text?"

If it could be an email and it doesn't necessarily have to be a text, we'll scrap it and we'll just turn it into an email. People don't necessarily need to receive it right away. It's not that important or that urgent. 

And we'd like to use it for example, in the abandoned cart sequence, or the abandoned checkout sequence, to go back and forth between email and text. 

So might lead with an email saying, "Hey Chase, you left this in your cart checkout. If you don't purchase, we might follow up with a text message. If you check out, we then pause sending anything else." 

So we go back and forth between emails and text to see how we can get someone  within an abandoned cart and checkout, typically that first 24 to 72 hours is the most important terms of getting someone to convert.

After the 72-hour mark, we've probably lost that sale or maybe they're just gonna come back to us later. And then SMS and email, we cover similar topics in terms of the bodies in the buckets of content that we go through, but they don't... 

You don't need them to be the same. And we'll also exclude people if we can, that are receiving text from not receiving emails and vice versa. 

So that way, they're not just getting to have 2of  the same if the content happens to be pretty similar.

Chase Clymer  

That's a lot of amazing advice. I think what you mentioned with the "stealing attribution", I thought that was really funny. And I think that the industry as a whole has this bad perspective on attribution, and they lend... Not lend. That's the wrong term. 

But basically everyone's looking at last click attribution, which is not how customers shop. And I've seen a lot of really cool solutions coming into the market these days explaining the entire customer journey and the attribution that is being... It isn't being misrepresented. 

2 things aren't claiming the same thing. Let me tell you that. It is, they were shown these ads or they did get these outreaches or whatever. These touchpoints happened at different parts of the journey, but within the window that you automatically allocated there. 

And I think that once merchants and maybe sometimes marketers and advertisers start to realize that they need to see that email before they convert on that Tiktok ad, right? 

They aren't mutually exclusive.

Chase Dimond  

Yeah. Dude, I totally, totally agree. I think, with email and SMS, part of the goal there, really, is to build that trust and build that bond. 

So if someone does convert, and whether they convert directly from that email or directly from the SMS, or through a Facebook ad, or they just come back to the site, organically, as long as you're driving that sale, that's really important. 

And email and SMS do a great way at building that really intimate, exclusive bond. I think that's the thing. 

Sure, you have this number of attributions or this amount of revenue from these channels. But in reality, they're probably actually contributing to more revenue than they're being accounted for.

And in other cases, like Facebook, Instagram, and SEO are probably being the same. They're also helping increase that awareness, which then gets the sale for email. 

So they really are working  holistically together to make sure that someone does convert. And that's really the end goal. I think more people need to think about getting someone to convert is the goal. 

Obviously, building the relationship, building the community. But if they convert and you're profitable, then just keep doing what you're doing.

Chase Dimond  

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. I think that they all exist for a reason. And the channels work. And at the end of the day, you have to realize that you need to be marketing to your customers in the channels in which they personally are hanging out and want to be spoken to. 

And so while your customer avatar is probably very similar, the individuals might prefer outreach on SMS versus email or they might like to actually sit down and read the emails, but when they're ready to shop, they're going to respond to the ad. 

User behaviors are insane.

Chase Dimond  

Yeah. And one of the things to add is... Okay, let's talk about  social, email, and SMS. So... 

Chase Clymer  


Chase Dimond  

You send, let's say, 3 emails a week. If your open rates are 20%, that means one person might actually open one of your emails. 

And if you send 1 text message a week, a lot of people are gonna end up opening that. So it's like you got someone opening 1 email, got someone opening 1 text. If you post on social media, they follow you... 

You might post 6 times in a week, and I might actually see 1 or 2. So we actually have to do more than we think just because it's... 

We're silly if we think that every single person is going to read every text, every email, every post that we create. So that's why they all really work together. 

It's like, we're doing 3 emails a week. We're doing 1 text message a week, we're 8 posts a week. But they're actually only seeing a really small sliver and that's what's getting you to convert. 

And you don't know necessarily what that actually is. So you have to be really consistent. And you have to do more than you think is enough because that's what's ultimately going to have these people engage and convert.

Chase Clymer  

Yeah, it's a nail on the head there, Chase. it. And like you mentioned, earlier it's like a lot of these brands are scared to send more emails, even though they're not sending quite enough. And a term I've literally heard  from clients and stuff is that I don't want to "bombard them". 

It's this crazy, weird thing that you're going to be annoying people. But the truth of it is they're going to either open or archive that email faster than they thought about the last time they were emailed.

Chase Dimond  

Yeah, I think the biggest challenge... And I think this is email, and this is outside of emails. Us marketers, we're wearing two hats at all given times. We're in this consumer mindset and we're in this marketer mindset. 

And oftentimes, I think we forget what hat we're wearing. When we're trying to think about our email strategy, we might think we're in the marketing hat, but we're actually thinking of ourselves as consumers. "I don't want to receive 2 or 3 emails a week necessarily from a brand. So I'm not going to send 2 or 3 to my customers." 

So we have these biases that we bring over from one world into the other. I think it's important to have compassion and empathy and awareness. 

But I often think, too, it's almost like we forget which hat we're wearing. So we don't do this. 

And because we've never done this, we're never going to do it. It's like the self-fulfilling prophecy that just never happened. So it's interesting when you think about yourself, as those 2 people. 

Maybe even get yourself in the frame of "Okay, I'm here thinking about my strategy for my client. I'm thinking about the strategy for my brand. How am I thinking about this? Am I Chase, the marketer or am I Chase, the consumer?" 

You want to marry and kind of blend the two about how it's beneficial, and [how] you see fit for your business. Because you're doing this for your business.

Chase Clymer  

Yeah, I think that. I agree with everything you just said. But what I do want to say is you and I, as marketers and being in this industry, I think that we are... We've seen the sausage get made. So I over analyze everything I see. 

When I am off the clock and in consumer mode, I want to buy things for myself. And it's just, I sometimes have to catch myself like "Chase, why do you care? Just buy the pants."

Chase Dimond  

Yeah. We're purposely abandoning the carts to get the best discount or reaching out to customer support about our subscription that we're about to cancel because we're gonna get a better discount. Everyone's playing the game and learning how things happen. And think that's good. 

But I also think you have to realize, yeah, if you're chilling at home, study it, understand it, but don't obsess over it to the point where now you're back in work mode. 

And if you're at work, don't just be so stuck in consumer land that you're not going to send it and you have this fear. So it's interesting. 

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. Now Chase, is there anything that I forgot to ask you about today that you think would resonate with our audience?

Chase Dimond  

That's a good question. Man,we talked about a lot. I don't know. Nothing that I can think of. And if people have any questions, I'd be happy to come back for a second episode. 

I'm not sure if they're gonna want to hear me talk again for 30 minutes. But if we have any questions or if your listeners have questions and they hit you up, I'd be happy to come back.

Chase Clymer  

Oh. No, I'll definitely have you on in a couple months. Maybe we'll plan it better and get something more timely. Maybe do something with Black Friday, holiday planning or something. Make sure it comes out close to that

Chase Dimond  


Chase Clymer  

So if people are interested in following you and learning more about all the stuff that you're amazing at, where should they go? What should they do?

Chase Dimond  

Yeah, I think the best place is to follow me on Twitter. Within my Twitter bio, I have a link to my free newsletter. I've got a link to a paid newsletter, link to paid courses. So my handle on Twitter is @ecomchasedimond. But there's no a in Dimond. So it's D-I-M-O-N-D. @ecomchasedimond. No 'a'.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. And we're gonna link to that in the show notes for everybody. Chase, thank you so much for coming on the show, 

Chase Dimond  

Hey, man. Thanks for having me. 

Chase Clymer  

Alright. I can't thank our guests enough for coming on the show and sharing their knowledge and journey with us. 

We've got a lot to think about and potentially add into our own business. You can find all the links in the show notes. 

Make sure you head over to honestecommerce.co to check out all the other amazing content that we have. Make sure you subscribe, leave a review. And obviously if you're thinking about growing your business, check out our agency at electriceye.io. Until next time.