Brennan Dunn is the co-founder of RightMessage, a software company that helps bring on-site personalization to the masses by integrating your existing website with your email marketing database.
Today, Brennan shares why it's important to segment your audience by who they are and what they need – along with what to do once you have that data.
In This Conversation We Discuss:
- [6:30] The technology behind a good segmentation strategy
- [9:00] How to survey your audience (without annoying them)
- [16:30] Using personalization to sell more product
- [20:15] Segmentation can seem overwhelming... so where do you start?
- [29:10] Personalization dos and dont's
- Check out https://rightmessage.com/honestecommerce
- Learn more at https://brennandunn.com/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/brennandunn
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brennandunn/
- Survey service: https://www.typeform.com/
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The problem is I think most of us look at websites, these kinds of static entities where copywriting is how can I come up with the common denominator baseline copy that will be able to everyone?
Where if you could just say directly This is how this will help you. That's what people want. Do they want to know how can you assist me?
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Let's get on with the show! On this episode of honest e-commerce, we talked to Brennan Dunn of double your freelancing and right message about personalization and segmentation for your eCommerce store.
Welcome back to another episode of Honest Ecommerce. I'm here with Brennan Dunn of double your freelancing and right message fame alongside a net grant helping me host this fabulous podcasts.
Short story. I actually have been following Brennan since before the agency, but since before the podcast.
I was actually at his last conference we met he gave me some amazing actionable advice back then that actually kind of helped me steer the course to where I am now. So thank you for that. Brennan.
Yeah, happy to help.
Alrighty, so today's topic is something that's getting kind of a buzz right now. And that's marketing, segmentation, and personalization. So what makes you an expert in that?
Well, I think I mean, expertise, I guess, a lot of the same things again and again, and getting a lot of data about it, right.
So without really knowing what I was doing. I've been doing some form of segmentation and personalization.
For my main company or my first freelancing, better part of the last four or five years, and I can talk a bit more in a second about what that meant.
And in those since last really since last January, so exactly about a year, I'm the co-founder of capital right message where what we do is we enable people to very quickly and easily start to segment the traffic that comes to their website,
And also personalize the experience they have on their website with the intended outcome of making websites and products more relevant to people. So they're more likely to buy so everyone's happier.
Really, since I want to say 2012 I've been doing things around, it started simple, like if you're anonymous, and you're not on my list, and I want you to get on my list.
And then if you are already on my list instead of trying to get you back on my list and instead, show a product you and that's kind of where it started.
And then I went more complicated where I would do things Like well what if they're on my list but they're this type of business further this on.
So I've been doing a lot of that more manually for the last few years and then with our we've developed an off the shelf product that makes it really accessible to anybody regardless of you know. I'm in developer by trade so it kind of was always frustrating where people would see what I was doing and say,
How can I do that and my default answer would be hiring a coder. So you know, I've been kind of helping through the right message make it so really anyone who runs an online business and not need to hire a coder.
All right, so we're talking about the segmenting and you know, bringing it back to the kind of like an e-commerce perspective.
So I own a store right and I sell let's just say I sell shoes, I got my own shoe brand. You know, why is personalization, such a big deal to me.
Think about it this way. So if you are at a let's say you work a shoe store, and somebody walks in the door. Typically a few things are going to happen.
First off, you're going to whether we admit it or not, we're going to kind of judge their parents and say, well, we're probably here for a set of new Nike shoes, are they here to get really nice, like business type shoes.
And typically speaking, you're going to go in and you're going to talk with them. And you're going to ask them about styles they like and so on.
And you're going to kind of curate their experience to get them the right products. Right. Also, if they're a returning customer, if you've already served them in the past, you might do things a bit differently.
Maybe you reference the thing they bought from you before. So, typically speaking, the way I look at it is there are two different dimensions that I like to think about when it comes to segmentation.
The first is who demographically or in a b2b sense, who firm graphically is this person? Are they male or female?
I mean, if they're male, we're going to show them and you know, female shoes, are they young or older or they may be like what is a different kind of demographic thing that inputs that you can use to do things like showcasing social proof.
So again, if if I'm at a shoe store, and I'm looking down page, I'm going to want to see that hero area, and maybe, you know, a testimonial or something. I want to see people like me in that, right.
So if I'm a business owner, and I'm looking for really nice, good or well to other shoes, that's what I'm going to want to see versus maybe somebody who is somebody, not that who was looking for something totally different, right?
So that's the one dimension which is, who somebody is and then who somebody is. And the other thing is what they want. So they shopping for themselves. Maybe they're shopping for somebody else.
Maybe like why is it that they're looking for shoes because their current shoes are falling apart? Or they looking to kind of improve their wardrobe, you know, so on and so forth.
When you can figure out, the ones who's in the ones are able to better recommend better personalize the experience in the house.
So whether it's showing different products copy anyone who's looking and redescribing your product just as you wanna buy, right?
So when I sell in person, I better really market an account for you and why are you here? And what do you want?
I tailor the offer based on that. It's just about being able to do that in a way that is pretty much infinitely scalable and automatically done on your website.
That's incredible. So if you were too off the top of your head, how would you come up with that segmentation strategy for that owner? And then I guess maybe a bit more about the technology behind it, like, how are you doing this?
Okay, let's start with that. So, there are really two ways to profile somebody or segment somebody.
One way of doing it, behaviorally is through let's see running a lot of ads and you're running different versions of these ads that have different ad copy that are different types of people.
You can pass along as URL parameters back to your website information about who is this ad targeting noses, women men are going to many women ages 18 to 30. And that information can be sent along to your website.
So now when they're clicking around your website, you remember that you know that info came from Facebook.
And you can start to do things like switching out the testimonials and so on. So that's one way you know, that's one behavioral way through the end down the ad.
You could also look at, for instance, let's say, Mary, shoe review.com sends you traffic. You can include maybe a testimonial from Mary's friend center when they come over to your website because those people presumably trust Mary and her opinion and so on and so forth.
So when people from the block was a click over your site, you can take an account well, who reads but save. Maybe this website read by, stay at home moms or something.
So when they come over, you can assume that's probably actually who that person is. And you can again change up the experience they have. So there are behavioral ways. And then there are explicit ways.
So this could be an onsite quick little survey pop up, like, you know, Hey, who are you shopping for himself, or, you know, my partner or kids or a friend or something like that.
And you can ask these questions, both on your website, you can ask them over email.
So you can include trigger links in the email, send that continue to segment who somebody is, you can also send them to a survey form if you want to do so.
One technique that I like to use does like an annual survey that your audience for a list and tell them hey, we want to better serve you in 2019.
Can you quickly fill out the survey and tell us about how we can best help and then when they submit that survey that gets associated with their profile in your email marketing, absolutely.
They're now next on your website, you're going to take all that data into account and give them a better experience.
Brennan, do you have any advice on if maybe it's the annual survey or just the pop-up survey? How many questions you should be asking so that your consumer doesn't get annoyed by the question and you're trying to extract you know, as much information as possible. How many questions would you suggest?
For usually a lot of our customers are doing between three and five? And the first question should always be a way like, how can I help you? What do you need from us?
I've seen where people start with, like demographic information, but that there's nothing compelling for me to say, Oh, I'm a 34 year old and, you know, that's a bad excuse or bad example.
But, you know, that's not as compelling as, Hey, welcome, and how can I best help you today? Oh, I need help with this, or I need that.
Once they answer that question, then the likelihood that they answer the following questions, of course, for the roof.
So typically, I see three to five the first Question being something centered around it? How can I help? How can I? or How can we?
Is that do you suggest open-ended questions or you know, just like ABC or D choose?
Well, open-ended is good if you want a lot of raw data, but from the perspective of segmentation, it needs to be one.
Because if it's a paragraph of text, so you can't really extract out the sentiments and put them into a group that way, right? Like you need to choose, you know, so like, why are you here choose one of four options.
You can only segment if they basically bucket themselves into one of those four options versus a you know, open-ended paragraph and response rates are higher too because no one sees here to click a no unless versus blog form.
Do you have a survey app that you can maybe suggest for listeners that you use?
I mean, for on-site service, so unobtrusive public service, we right messaged my product as that Bolton awesome but hosted let's say you wanted to do a traditional kind of Survey Monkey type thing.
I really like time for him because it's good looking. And it also integrates with software like Zapier or a lot of email marketing app.
So you can say, if they answer this option, then store that option, as you know, tag them in.
And you know, Shopify, or we're not trying to do or trip or something like that, right?
Based on their answer so that way, they answer some questions, then future emails you send them can be more personal, but also when they come back to your website to buy something that same data can be brought up your websites, and they continue that theme. From email to the website.
Yeah, you touched on something there that actually I'm going to just kind of explain a bit because it might get confusing for some people when you're talking about creating these tags and segmenting your audience.
Nine times out of 10 default Shopify, Magenta, Squarespace, any of your CMS is for your eCommerce store isn't going to have that capability. Nor is it really useful to custom dev that into your store.
But these you know, ESP extended service provider, like these email platforms like clavio and drip, you know, MailChimp, you can store those tags in there. And that's what Brennan's talking about.
Yeah. And what's nice is you can make it so I mean, obviously, if the tag is housed in KV or something, you can make it so when you send an email, you can say if they have this, this paragraph text, or that paragraph.
But then you can also make it so when they click over from your email to your website, there's identifying information passed along, saying hey, this person visiting the website is clavio subscriber number 123.
What do we know about that person, and then that can be synced over to the website.
And it sounds really it used to be extremely complicated part, a lot of custom code not to cut my own thing too much, but that's one of the things we tried to do is make it so it's easy for your website to be in full synchronization with the subscriber data that you have about the person who's on your website.
I mean, let's talk about how powerful this can get to give us what is your favorite thing that you built on double your freelancing that was powered by this segmentation?
I think the beta, like one of the really fun things, makes it so. My other business that we are freelancing, if we help freelancers, and freelancers could be developers, they could be marketers, they could be designers know, there are all these different types.
And I remember once I somebody was looking at my course on pricing, and email me saying, hey, I've heard good things about this course. But it looks like it's meant for developers and designers.
Just remember, wrote, can this help me? I'm a copywriter. So she emailed me and I replied, saying you know, to be honest, it's not specific.
Any technology or anything, it's just the course and how to go about selling your services.
And the reason that you see copywriters and developers and stuff are not many copywriters, developers and designers as testimonials, these, the language that they use is oh, that's my background.
And a lot of the early customers were people like me. And so I thought, well, how many other people were like this woman who had that same objection, that same thought, but instead of emailing me the clothes tab with a back but so I went about making it so you know, I would learn things about like, what kind of work you do.
And are you solo? Are you an agency or maybe haven't started yet? And then what I would do is I make it so I would reposition that course on the fly based on that.
So if you are a design agency, who is struggling to close proposals, when you're looking at the W feelings great sales page, it's going to be talking about signage, through social proof from design agencies who have succeeded with it and you're gonna see stuff about how this course specifically will help you overcome your proposal issue.
And that's exactly what it happens. So if I'm at a conference and let's say the conference is a conference full of marketers, and somebody is talking to me at one of the after-parties, and they asked me about what I do, and they asked about, say that product.
I'm going to take an account. I'm in a marketing conference, I'm going to talk about how this helps marketers, right. I mean, it's natural. This is what we all do and it just allows you to do that, but automatically.
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Let's tailor that over to go back to this shoe store that we were we've been fictitiously talking about what would be the strategy behind? How would we use personalization on this website to sell more shoes?
Yeah. I think typically, personalization done right. What it's going to do is it's going to increase engagement on your site, right?
So it's going to keep more people on your website and everyone wants that niche website, right like niche stores do really well because people want the thing made just for that.
So let's say you could find out somehow that this person really cares about build quality. This person really cares about ethically sourced, you know, materials, this person really cares about style.
So let's say you found out, through surveying or something like that, these different things, and I could say, oh, Brennan, who's listing now cares a lot about sustainability.
Whereas a net, who cares a lot about, you know, how its constructed, and so on.
So, when describing a product, when kind of the overall theme of the website, what you can do is you can make it so let's change up a headline to say, you know, how is this it was worse, how is this going to help?
You know, whatever, right like it and you can focus on that, whereas split second later, and that shows up. She doesn't care about that as much as she cares about instruction. And you can talk about how the craftsmanship that goes in each show and so on.
So you know that's obviously a case by case basis in terms of like, what are the different segments that you would focus on and what would you do when somebody is in this segment versus that segment.
But typically speaking like if you have a really compelling headline on a page that is speaking directly to the thing I care about, I'm more likely to say, you know what, I'm going to keep reading this page and keep reading when they have, what they're selling and so on and engagement goes up.
So the whole goal is to make it so I can see how this is more relevant to me based on data that you know, so are they a returning customer?
Well, you don't need to really talk about people who have not bought from you have the projections that people who have already bought from you are coming back don't have right so they maybe they're tracking or whatever else.
So you can change things around a bit like maybe returning customers coming back, maybe give them a returning customer discount that for our money who is coming there for the first time with maybe some other offers like that.
You're able to do pretty much virtually anything you want, in terms of changing content calls to action offers, and so on.
Again, based on what they want and also I've mentioned this before, but where they are in the buying cycle, so maybe anonymous people, you want to get them on a list to get a one time discount.
If they've already done that, when they come back, instead of hitting them with other pop-up things happen really trust, which is useless, you already know your email because they've already done that.
You could say no, hey, Brennan, you still haven't already in your 10% coupon, click here and will automatically apply to your cart.
And then if I come back after being a customer, maybe I see some sort of, you know, the customer-focused promotion that you're doing. So you can pretty much skull in terms of what you're able to do.
But what we've seen work really well is being able to do things like based on who they are, changes, social proof, change up the introductory headlines that draw people in, based on what they want, or why they're here.
Again change of language that draws them in. And also based on where they are the anonymous customer so on so forth. You could change up calls to action and different things like that.
I'm going to ask a question that I know the answer to, but it's going to really help our audience. This sounds like a lot of work, Brennan, and I don't want to do it.
Yeah, Actually I'm a store owner, Brennan, so my mind is expanding because I segment and I do most of the work on my own.
I segment my email list, but I'm kind of kicking myself right now because I do not segment the messaging on my homepage. What a DIY or like myself, where do I start with that?
That's what led us to create right?
Okay. Because I'm overwhelmed with thinking that thought I was on the right path with segmenting my email and I'm like, wait, but the people that are just finding me the anonymous I'm probably losing them with my messaging.
I think the email marketing officer doing a good job of talking about the Need for personalized email? purchases happen on websites, right? So you get an email with a promotion or something, but you're still brought back to the website.
And oftentimes you'll see this you'll get an email from an eCommerce company and you click through and then like a pop up shows up immediately asking for your email or, you know, something like that, right?
Because they tend to be designed for anonymous traffic, right? Like most of us are thinking, Okay, I want people my email us.
And so I'm going to do this exit pop up, or I'm going to do this welcome mat thing that slides down when people show up.
And that's all good. Well, but again, if somebody literally just got an email from you, and they click over from an email, why would you ask them there?
Yeah, right. So we built the right message as an off the shelf tool that what it does is you sign up for an account, you integrate it with just a click with whatever marketing on use we don't have clever yet.
We're working on it, but we have a trip to convert kit, Hubspot and bunch of other ones.
And then what was it is to make it so somebody is on your list and comes back to your website, will then associate this visitor is this person.
And then you can do things like you basically set up very simple segments. Like, if they have this tag if they have the customer tag, and drip, let's say, then you're a customer.
And then you can do something like it's all pointing click, click on a headline, and say, welcome back customer or welcome back their name even directly, but if they're anonymous, we want to say something else, right?
And so you can, you can visually point and click on anything on your site and change up virtually anything.
And you can tie these changes should be based on data that you already have about them.
And if they're anonymous, let's say that they came from sustainable shoe review blog.com, you can make it so when they click over, we don't need to ask them what it is they want, we can probably assume that they care about sustainable stuff, right?
So we answer that question for them. So that immediately when they come over there on hit with a question, instead of saying something about how, you know, these shoes are sustainably sourced or stuff like that, right?
So that's the power of it. And that, all you need to do is define your segments. So we've got in terms of what do people need? Or why would they care about build quality, sustainability, style, whatever?
And then you define how people get into these segments. So you know, if we don't know anything, we're going to have a pop up, which is a little question widget, but if they came from this domain, or that domain, or maybe they clicked on this
Or that we're going to put them automatically in the segment and not asked. Right?
So they click on an ad, that's the ad copy the ad, the messaging on that ad is all about craftsmanship quality or something like that, we can automatically answer that question effectively for them and put them in that segment without needing to engage in any way.
So once you've done that, then all you do in our visual editor is just click on what you want to change, swap out a picture, swap out a video with this headline, change this button or whatever you want visually with it, no code based on when somebody belongs to one of these different segments.
And so the easiest way to probably get started like I could near my email segments to the right message, is that how you would normally start.
Let's say you have a segment that's defined by they have this tag or not that tag.
You could then just find a segment and great message that is the same thing and say look for this tag, but not that tag.
It depends some of these expose their segment like trip doesn't expose segments by their API CD to reconstructed but things like HubSpot, do.
So with them and you wouldn't even you could just mirror the same segment that you have within their back end.
How is your product priced?
It depends on what you want to do with it. So it starts at 29 a month. And what that gives you is just serving so if you just want an idea of, let's say you want to ask people, why are you here? You know, are you this or that?
That's called our surveillance. And what that does is all that will give you is they'll give you high-level data over time about how other people are website breakout, right so 30% is this 20% or that so on and so forth.
The next tier up, which I believe is 39 I don't have the person in front of me right now is enriched.
What that will do is when people answer this questions, it will store that data in your email marketing, or if they're not on your email list yet.
It will wait until the often and then sync all that data so they could go and answer a few questions go away, come back a week later, when your list at that point will sync up all that data we've already remembered about that.
And then the high-end plan starts at 79 a month and that is personalized, which allows you to not only do that kind of surveying, segmentation stuff, but also change content change and content on your website, or based on the data.
One of my last questions is do you find that your right message is helping stores to see segments that they weren't even aware of?
Because I feel like I know my segments but I have a feeling like you would be able to show me some things that I haven't been able to do on my own.
Things first with high volume are able to very quickly set up a new question like so for instance, I did this on feelings can I ask what is the number one thing you want to focus on 2019 so when I'm emailing people out my newsletter 50,000 people get this email, because that's my blog.
They go to my blog, they're reading the newest article, this is new question. I'm able to effectively survey everyone on my list. When I send them all back to my site.
With a new question, I was able to get some data that will help me ban what going to be doing this year.
So I think it's super helpful in the sense of being able to quickly set up a question, collect some data, either keep that running currently or just kind of share it after you know what you got from it.
But yeah, I mean, so what I've done is, let's say, so I actually do this. I don't do it anymore. But I used to, because of I better beta now, but I used to ask what kind of freelancing you do.
And one of the options other, if they clicked other, they would get an email from me immediately, saying, you know, hey, I saw you, you're not doing one of the ones I'd find.
I'd love to hear a bit about kind of what kind of business you run and how your best self-described yourself.
So can you just reply to this email, let me know so what I found interesting was I would ask things like, are you a designer, developer, a marketer, writer, and so on.
And people would click other and say, I'm a UI UX designer, or I'm a branding person, and I would have thought they're the same thing. But it was interesting learning that they actually don't.
Some branding people don't consider themselves to be designers, which, you know, I didn't think but I was able to kind of rewire my understanding of that, people that way.
So you definitely do find out one of our customers' path.
He's changing up his entire strategy this year based on data that he collected on his website by people coming back to his blog, by his newsletter, or people just showing up from scratch, about you know, who they are, what stage of business, what stage of their business, they're in and answering questions like you have an email list to podcasts, and use the old to get all this data which helped me now better determine what it is he getting best marketing to grow his business next year.
That's fantastic. All right, you've got me sold. I want to personalize my website, you know, give me do you have like some do's and don'ts for me?
I think a lot of people make the mistake and we see this a lot and thinking that you know, they kind of get overwhelmed.
And they're thinking, wow, this isn't a giant project, right? Like, I mean, almost like if they were redesigning the website, you need to plan it all out and make all these decisions upfront.
But the way that I look at it is if you can just start by doing something simple like if they're on your list, don't show an often instead bring them to your newest products page or if they're off your list, then get them on your list.
Something like that, which you know with the right message can be done in less than half an hour probably start finished your first time.
So you know, get that up and that way you'll start making it so when returning customers are subscribers to your website, they're going to be instead of being harassed give you their email, they're going to be given something a little more useful to them, like, hey, why don't you go check out our new products.
So, you know, start there and then you can start to add complexity over time.
But I see a lot of people who look at it as either I have a personalized website, or I don't have a personalized website, I can tell you firsthand that I've been evolving the complexity of my personalization. for the better part now realistically with it, since I've done this right.
Over the last few years. It started out very well back in 2012. It's turned out super simple.
And then two years ago, I redid my site and stuff. I started kind of from scratch, the personalization strategy. And it's gotten more complex, more complex over time, as it starts in data.
So the big thing is, we AB test everything so you're able to see concretely This is how you control your own personalized same product page form. This is how it performed when people were being personalized to engage that page.
So you're able to make a decision and see exactly Okay, well, no, this is 8% more sales are coming as a result of this.
So what's, what else can I do that with next? And that's always my advice is don't go. Don't think too much ahead. Start simple. Start small and go from there.
Yeah, I think that is fantastic advice. Not only if you wanted to get started with personalization, or just with anything SEO.
Do any of the big things exactly with email marketing, you know, a lot of people are like, well, then I gotta come up with a strategy to email them every week.
Like, I don't know what I'm going to say. It's like, well, you're not even asking for emails right now. So maybe start with that?
Yeah, exactly. Like, give him on your list and you'll figure that solid. And that's actually what we tell people to do is, you know, we're usually saying to people don't even start on our personalized plan, change site.
Start with like and rich we can start at least segmenting your list. We can you visit your site. Say, within five minutes to now ask questions to people who are not hitting your site.
All that data is being sent up through email marketing. And a little longer and a few months later, you're going to look you receive all these segmented subscribers that you didn't have before, you know, segmented out by who they are, what they want from, you know, so and so forth.
The app is not too old now you're going on a year of business. Congratulations, by the way.
What do you see is the difference between the people that are ending up in a segmented list and then the subscribers where you just have their emails is there any sort of oddities that you find, you know, any correlation between one time purchases versus you know, people that are more segmented usually repeat customers?
Um, well, it depends on how you're segmenting, right? Like I mean a lot of so my primary lead magnet on we sell a lot of courses
But when 3dr Often I asked them, who are you? And what is it you need this course to help you with? So, you know, I get that data upfront, it's mandatory that they tell me.
And then I definitely have seen a correlation between what I'm able to tell us and we can this is throwback in their face, like, Hey, you said you're struggling in this way.
Here's exactly how this product will help you overcome that. You know, people generally like that. I mean, again, it's people want that's specific niche product or service made just for them.
If I know the best way to sell anybody, and I used to do a lot of agents were affected, and if I, anyone who I was talking to and who referred them to us, and so on and so forth, but I would change really my entire strategy and how I went about telling them about why they should work with us.
So again, this all this is a kind of standard practice offline. And we've been doing it really since probably the dawn of time.
First tried to convince anyone to do anything, right like you take into account Who are you speaking with and what is it they need? Why would they care?
And the problem is I think most of us look at websites these kinds of static entities where you know copywriting is how can I come up with the common denominator a signed copy that will appeal to everyone where if you could just say directly this is how will help you.
But then somebody else comes in you push it up and it's like this is how this will help you. You know what I mean, that's what people want. Do they want to know how can you assist me?
So, Brennan, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the show but a couple of things where can our listeners find you and if they're interested in your product? How can they reach you and do you have anything you can assist them with?
Yes, if you want to check out what we do and everything else the rightmessage.com, although I advise for you to rightmessage.com/honesteCommerce.
Now this is actually going to Get the full disclaimer I'm going to automatically put you in the conversation I'm hopefully going to get you guys to give me a testimonial so your pictures and what you say will be front and center and what's your listeners trust do they don't know me
And I'm going to do that automatically through great message really obviously the end the show knows I went to from there the same rules by yeah but if that's the rightmessage.com/honesteCommerce if you want to say hi or every note Brennan comes by you know, try to at least acknowledge respond to every log.
Awesome. Well, thank you so much.
Thank you so much. I learned a lot myself.
Around Yeah, Happy New Year!
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