Jeremy is a self-described data nerd on a mission to make more eCommerce businesses successful.
He leads Business Development and partnerships at Daasity, the founder of the Messenger Mastermind agency, and the host of the Messenger Mastermind podcast, where he and his co-hosts share their experiences testing winning strategies on their own businesses and host engaging interviews with the leaders in Conversational Marketing, SMS campaigns, and product launches.
In This Conversation We Discuss:
- [00:00] Intro
- [00:41] Sponsor: Klaviyo klaviyo.com/honest
- [01:39] Why you should listen to Jeremy
- [02:31] Brands getting success from SMS
- [07:14] What to do when running campaigns to an SMS list?
- [09:40] Sponsor: Gorgias gorgias.grsm.io/honest
- [10:28] When to send SMS campaigns?
- [12:47] Sponsor: Rewind rewind.com/honest
- [13:26] Mixed results for sales-y emails
- [15:05] Pre-selling as a consideration
- [17:14] Ecommerce becomes your ATM when done right
- [18:59] Sponsor: Avalara avalara.com/honest
- [19:48] Get more people on my SMS list
- [23:47] Tools that Jeremy use
- [26:17] The growth of Ecommerce industry
- [30:44] Go back to the fundamentals
- Jeremy’s LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/jeremyhorowitz1
- Messenger’s Mastermind website messengermastermind.co
- Jeremy’s Messenger Mastermind Podcast: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/messenger-mastermind/id1437452282
- Visit gorgias.grsm.io/honest to get your 2nd month with Gorgias free!
- Visit klaviyo.com/honest to get a free trial!
- Visit avalara.com/honest to find out how your business can be sales tax ready!
- Visit rewind.com/honest and enter your email to get your first month absolutely free!
If you’re enjoying the show, we’d love it if you left Honest Ecommerce a review on Apple Podcasts. It makes a huge impact on the success of the podcast, and we love reading every one of your reviews!
SMS should be extremely high-returning for you because you should be reserving it for your most important messages that people really want to / need to see from your brand.
Welcome to Honest Ecommerce, where we're dedicated to cutting through the BS and finding actionable advice for online store owners.
I'm your host, Chase Clymer. And I believe running an online business does not have to be complicated or a guessing game.
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Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Honest commerce. I'm your host, Chase Clymer.
I am doing great. Thanks for having me, Chase.
Yeah, based on our conversation that we had on the Messenger Mastermind Podcast, I was so excited to jump on and extend the conversation. I think we'll dive into some really cool stuff today.
Yep. So welcome. Thank you for listening to the podcast, everyone.
But we're gonna just... Right now, we're gonna stop and be like, "Hey, we've had a lot of conversations about SMS."
SMS is a giant topic on million(s) of podcasts. And there's a lot of new exciting products and experts in the space. So we were talking about before this call that we said, "Okay, we were gonna talk about SMS. We're gonna talk about everything that people aren't talking about in those more generic episodes."
So this is going to be the outside the box, SMS conversation. It's gonna be a little more freeform.
But Jeremy is an expert in the field. He runs Messenger Mastermind. Let people know why they should actually give a crap about SMS and your history with it and prove to the people that I've truly got an expert here.
Yeah. Sure. High-level. You can listen to a guy who's made over $5 million in SMS sales for brands from someone who didn't want to get into SMS marketing and hated it when he first heard about it back in 2017.
Absolutely. I think that the numbers speak for itself. And there's no reason to not trust somebody who's got the case studies to back it up.
Let's dive in. So I've got a business, we've got product-market fit. We are making sales organically, we built out our basic SMS system, probably using one of the sponsors of my podcast. So they've got all that stuff figured out.
What [are] the next steps? What's separating a successful brand, from a non-successful brand, capitalizing on SMS?
Yeah, I'm gonna answer this in 2 parts. So the first one, I'm more foundational level. They're sending crappy campaigns, the flows just don't tie in with their other channels well, and then they're not doing creative things.
So when I say, “What makes a great campaign?” You're sending something that people actually want to receive a text message, which there's tons of content out there.
We've put out a ton of content on that. If you think about (it), just treat the channel you're treating as a friend. (It’s) pretty good framework, it'll be pretty easy. And then just really think you have net new creative opportunities to push your brand.
Everybody's gonna get the promo message arrows and get the product launch messages. Everything gets us the usual run-of-the-mill ecommerce stuff.
What is specific to your brand? That is an interesting and new experience that you can provide that you want to (have a) guaranteed open rate.
So (here’s) a quick example of something that we just saw that completely I was shocked by. So one of our brands in the fitness apparel space sells a lot of women's clothing. And they put together these nutrition guides and these workout plans.
And we saw a 90...95% unique click-through rate. So 95% of people that got the message clicked on it. And it was essentially a simple PDF of “Here's a monthly calendar of all your workouts. Here's how to do the workouts. Here's the schedule.” and it's right, they're not selling anything.
They're not pushing products. There's no promotion, but that campaign, obviously their customers care about it. They're buying that product for that intended purpose. We’ve seen a lot of food brands do recipes, like stuff that adds a new experience.
And you're not going to get buried in email open rates of 10, 15, 20% it's not going to get buried in the social algorithm. So like premium is really brand-building moments, something that's related in a completely different space and we don't work on this brand, although I do admire what they're doing is get duty.
So a prepper kit like survival, we need everything that we're going to have if a natural disaster or something happens, and they occasionally just send everybody on their list like, “Hey, have you checked all the fire alarms and smoke detectors in your house? Here's a quick guide on how to do it.” So thinking of those like net new creative, I'm... there are tons of other ideas other brands are doing.
Think of those things that you maybe wouldn't put in an email or on social media. But it's a cool experience that your customers are going to appreciate.
Because you'll be surprised by how even if you don't put a CTA back to the site or a link or anything, inadvertently, those will still drive a lot of sales because people will have that great feeling moment with you. “You know what, yeah, I do need to go and buy some of that.”
Yeah, I think that's something that is still, unfortunately (a) leftover by direct response marketing, and everything needs a call to action. And it's always got to be sales-oriented. That works more top of the funnel when you're doing more traditional advertising. When you can't really narrow down who you're speaking to.
But when you have someone's cell phone, and you know what size pants they wear, you can get pretty creative on the exact approach that you're going to have to them. And you don't actually have to try to tell them something.
But if you're leading with value, and you're giving them something, they're going to be thinking about you and the next time that they need to purchase something.
Yeah, exactly. And it's also a nice change of pace if you are hitting people with all of the flows like welcome and abandon and post-purchase. And all of the typical campaigns, it gives them something nice, that's like, Oh, my God, I'm not gonna get another...just one brand that I follow, because huge, huge cosmetic brands and all I get from them are back in stock, notice text messages, and new product launches.
Those are great, they're valuable. But at this point, I've fatigued, what I like to call these change of pace messages may not be the number one revenue-driving message for your brand, if it keeps a list for what we call fresh so that people do respond better to those other more sales, heavy messages that might be that more direct response focus.
And it's keeping that balance is what's so important. Because, like, it's just such an intimate channel that you really don't want to wear people out because you do get that guaranteed message.
And it's a fine line that you really have to play with your brand. To keep that going, where do we take some cash out? And where do we put deposits back in for our customer base?
Yeah, you mentioned fatigue just there. So let's dive into that a bit more. I'm after a number of campaigns a month maybe? Or maybe there's a different way to think about it.
But you know, outside of the automation stuff, what should we be doing when we're running campaigns to an SMS list? Obviously, now, it's been drilled into us that it's different than email. But you know, what's that difference look like in terms of the number of campaigns we're sending?
Yeah, so my favorite take on like, SMS campaign volume so far was when I interviewed Alex Beller from PostScript on our podcast. And he said, it really comes down to how many times you have something interesting to say.
For most brands realistically, that's probably two to three times a month, we see that like when we really start to ramp up (the) volume and someone wants to send like a campaign every week, or multiple campaigns a week, like people just get burned out.
Because it usually goes back to that email tactic of like, we'd send someone the first message, and then it's like, “Hey, did you see that last thing that we send?” You don't have to do that SMS, everybody saw your message, and they responded, or they didn't. So that’s really important.
And also, don't hit someone for SMS messages in a row with a promo. Again, going meta-framework of treating them to your friend. You're not going to keep trying to sell somebody the same thing who doesn't want it.
So really just like having a couple (of) campaigns a month that are all super high value, that's what a lot of people don't appreciate SMS enough.
SMS should be extremely high returning for you because you should be reserving it for your most important messages that people really really want to / need to see from your brand.
And I think that that's a little bit of the nuance of the channel, that's super important. Also, you don't need to send that many messages to make a lot of money.
A great email open rate is 20 to 25%. A bad SMS rate is 90%. So like your four to five axing the people that are seeing your message. So you can have either a much smaller list or send a lot fewer campaigns that list and still make a lot of money from the channel.
And so really reserving it for those high-value moments like that really is something that you need someone to open. I think a lot of people need to shift their perspective towards that.
And this is coming from somebody who definitely had the wrong perspective for a while and through a lot of testing and figuring it out has gotten to this place.
But I think that's a really important place, especially if your responsibility is email marketing, and you've been given SMS as well, which I see is the hardest transition for a lot of people to make.
Yeah, I think that it's something you need to kind of holistically look at.
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You know, I think brands get to the point where they can do a weekly campaign because they've got things to say every week. And that's a good place to be at by getting to weekly payment.
I'm talking about email. That's something that a lot of brands do. As they're getting into that multi-million dollar mark They've got that system built out and they can produce a reason to email every week.
I don't think that you should be texting every week at that mark yet, because the things that you put in those emails aren't really things that are gonna translate the same way over to SMS.
I'm trying to think of a really clear example. But with email. Well, you said it earlier. Actually, I do want to reiterate... It’s like, don't follow up like, “Did you see that via text?” should just never happen.
One excuse I can think of is, “Did you see that this sale is ending and it’s not Black Friday.” That's like the only reason we should ever send two texts, I think is that time of the year...
...Other than that, it's like they saw it went to their cell phone that's in their hand.
Yeah. So Black Friday, or a similar major event of your year. Some brands have a couple of those events. And so with that, I see it as being like a good idea. But rephrasing it… We do that.
So for a lot of our brands this year, we did like an early drop of Black Friday and Cyber Monday, but you have to completely change your messaging each time. Like it wasn't just on Black Friday. It's like, “Hey, it's now live. Did you see what we sent you on whatever it was Tuesday or Wednesday before?”
No. It should be like, “Hey, you're all the benefits that we didn't get to a message one more we want to know that was live. Here's all the cool stuff to check out.” And maybe it's a longer message.
And then Cyber Monday was a completely different message. Don’t get me wrong. Coming out of things like Klaviyo and email marketing, like the reset and non-openers, and that like getting the most out of those emails is how you should play email.
But it's the exact wrong thing to do and SMS and we see a considerable drop from message one to message to where like a fit as much revenue and click-through rates will go from like the 20s to 30s down to the 5s to 10s.
And so like I haven't seen and I could be wrong, and if someone proves me wrong, please hit me up, we are very easy to find like I would love to see the results here. But I have not seen ones on a successful reminder in SMS that outperformed the original message. And I've always seen a considerable drop.
And so I think that's a really important thing to take away is going back to that same point like it's a guaranteed open. Treat it that way.
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And then something else I wanted to just share. And this is my opinion. I don't know how you feel about it.
But I'm just not a fan of... and this is actually Andy who's on my team. We just don't ever let our clients send or like in general sending like a... this is going to be the sale type email.
It's like, why can't I just buy it for those that right now? Like I want it now. It's making people annoyed.
So I don't know... I never liked those, this is what our Black Friday sale is going to be. But you don't get to do it just yet. It's like why there's literally no reason why (laughs).
So I haven't seen... well, I've seen mixed results for that for promos, we actually find that has worked a lot better for new product launches. So getting people on and telling them early, like, “Hey, this is coming.”
(It’s) something that we just found throughout the field with their face or just running a bunch of product launches.
People need to get their life in order sometimes to buy new products like sometimes they need to talk about what their significant other or their family and like get their finances in order to like literally make the purchase.
So we've actually found that giving early warning on product launches specifically has been very effective, where people are like, “Mark it on their calendars!” for one brand that we work with, like people our product goes live, let's say like, “(It’s now) 11 am. People are sitting on the site at 10:30 am waiting for it to go live.”
So I think that works really well. But yeah, if it's a promotion and they already know what it is like it's sometimes you as a marker, you can just move people to another channel and you can use that as an excuse to do it.
But I agree. I think customers are getting way more savvy to that type of stuff. And it's like, okay, just like I know you're gonna send me either email or hit me up with ads again when that actually goes live. So I will just discount it now.
I guess following up on what you just said, like it will work for product launches, my argument would be, “Why not just send them to a presale page?” There are reasons why especially if you've got a finite amount of stock availability.
I see it all the time with drops in, fashion stuff like that. But I mean, if you're... it's a product you're gonna have forever. Just pre-sell it. And just once you can start marketing it.
I know that it's definitely more of a personal thing. It's a brand thing, and you can make the choices and owner of your brand to do it however you want.
If you're gonna send a message, and you're trying to sell something, let the person buy it when they are excited about buying it...
...if the message appeals to them.
I agree. This might just be like me, personally. I have no attention span anymore. I'm always jumping between 9 million things. If somebody doesn't capture me, then I can't also smoothly take an action to the whole process. It's very unlikely that someone's going to lose me in the sales process.
And so I think in general, the entire industry is hitting this really interesting breaking point of everything needs to be so granularly optimized to fit that one specific piece. But then how do you build that back in brand messaging?
That's a really interesting challenge since I've been in this space, and we moved from Facebook to Instagram and Instagram to TikTok. It just keeps (getting) shorter and shorter and shorter timeframes and attention spans.
And so like, it's so interesting to see that balance, Like how do you get those quick hit messages? And how do you get that really smooth, optimized funneling?
But then... where we think a lot about is okay, we may have covered them successfully, we may have gotten that win originally. But if we didn't, what's the net that we keep them from to get them to that first purchase?
Then more importantly, how do we keep people around for the long term, so that inevitably, as those ad costs rise on the front end, we can keep bringing people back? And even if we're unprofitable on the front end, we can build long-term profitability on the back end.
And that to me is something that we've been really digging into recently over the past three years. But I think a lot of brands... I'm starting to hear a lot more brands talk about and think about things that way. I'm just fascinated to see what emerges over the next three years as I think we're just gonna go faster and faster in that direction.
Yeah. Ecommerce is cool because it comes down to the numbers. And it can be almost as… there are three numbers that matter at some point. And if you can do two things profitably, you can flip a switch and bring in another customer and you can prove it.
You've essentially invented an ATM, that's as simple as you can think about it. And then I mean, there's a bunch of other stuff that goes into it.
All you really need to know is if you can literally figure it out to where you can flip a switch, you can turn something on, you can push a button, and it will print you some money.
And then you sell that product and then you rinse, repeat. You've even met at an ATM, you always make more money. You know, unless you do something extremely terrible and ruin your business.
But you've essentially created an infinite money machine. And that's a cool thing about ecommerce and it's why it's fun to be in this business.
That was like a wild tangent. I did have a real question, though. Unless you have a response to that (laughs).
No (laughs), honestly, I'm always a sucker for tangents. So if you want to get your back to like where you wanted to ask, please now.
Yeah, I know, ecommerce is fun. And I hope everyone out there is having a blast with it. I know the people that are going from zero to one. The grind element of it where you're trying to find product-market fit, it's the hardest part.
And that's why you've got experts like me and Jeremy here that we're talking to talk. But it's oftentimes hard to walk the walk. Launching your own brand is definitely a labor of love. And you got to really find a really cool product.
Finding that product-market fit is absolutely the hardest thing ever. And oftentimes I see younger brands get kind of robbed by agencies saying they can help them find product-market fit. And that's just a complete lie. (It) sucks that you can't have someone help you out.
I bet you there are some people out there that do help you find product-market fit. And I do know that I am gonna have a guest on here talking all about it in the next couple weeks.
But you know, that's just literally the hardest part like you got to do that yourself. And then once you get some things in motion the firewall works, you know, you can scale it.
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Let's talk about that flywheel though. My opinion about SMS and email. Definitely more in the retargeting element of the funnel. Are people doing anything with SMS when it comes to prospecting? What do you see working to help drive list growth?
I would argue that SMS is further down the funnel, and you know it's a more warm or hot lead or prospect than email is. So what's working now? It's 2021. How do I get more people on my SMS list?
Yeah, I go back and forth because I think the fastest way you're going to grow your list is by putting it (on) top of (the) funnel with email capture as many phone numbers as possible.
The thing to keep in mind is the greatest value is going to come in from sending campaigns and then getting people back. So let's just dive straight into the tactical piece, what we do, and this has been like one of the best tactics I've ever seen deployed in all my time in CRO and ecommerce is what we call the 241 pop up.
Everybody probably has some sort of pop-up that hits people either on scroll, on exit for 10 seconds on-site, where you are capturing probably their email today with some sort of offer.
Although I hate leaving with a discount, let's just use a discount code as an example. So it's probably like 10%, offer your email if you sign up for our list.
And then what everybody's just been doing, what I've been seeing on the back end is a thank you page with a copyable discount code that just brings you back into the site.
What we did instead was on that second page, instead of just saying “Thank you, here's your discount code.” We say, “Hey, do you want another discount?”
So for this example, it's just 12% off. (We say,) “Give us your phone number.” And so the same way that you're going to route people down like a welcome series and email, SMS has this really cool, essentially reply feature where if someone texts you, you can text them back immediately.
And s getting rid of talking about before like a super optimized funnel, essentially, what we can do is we get as soon as somebody hits the site, capture their phone number, give them those discount codes, and then deliver it to SMS. And what I like about SMS is it's called a quick twitch channel.
So someone gets a text message of 90%. Of those people are going to read it within the first three minutes. So it's really really fast, right, like emails, typically a 48-hour window.
So we can get, we can deliver somebody that discount code, probably before they've even gotten to the products that they want to buy.
And so especially as with that really super optimized funnel, we can get someone to their product, get them the discount code that they can quickly copy out of their, their SMS inbox into their cart, and buy within minutes.
They don't have to jump to their email, they don't have to go digging through a spam filter or anything like that today. And we can just deliver that really, really quickly. The second place that you're going to grow your list of fastest is checkout. By the time this episode airs.
An important update to keep in mind is because you needed to have a second field and a second opt-in for SMS, specifically, you have to be on Shopify Plus, and you have to be able to customize your checkout to be SMS compliant to capture people's phone number at checkout.
So unfortunately, if you're not on Shopify, plus, you can't do this anymore. We got away with this for a couple of years, just because no one was tracking it at the time.
But the second place is right you had to capture... you don't have to... but most people capture their phone number when people are checking out, you can just add a second checkbox exactly the same way that there is that checkbox, like accepts marketing under the email field of like, hey, do you want to sign up for our best offers or new exclusive discounts or something of value for SMS and then those two things just because they rinse and repeat everybody who hits your site.
You'll capture some sort of percentage. The pop up is usually typically we see half of the people that give us their email, give us their SMS. And we consider that to be really high intent.
Because if you're giving us your email and your SMS, you're probably pretty interested in buying. And then we also see a lot of success with abandoned cards, because then you can set up the flows and bring people back started revenue-generating.
But to us the more important pieces now we've captured all those phone numbers for all those campaigns that we're going to send in the future.
Yeah. All right. So I love the first tactic you shared with me. You know, I'm an old dog, but he taught me a new trick. And we're gonna... I'm gonna implement this on some client stories this week. I'm excited about it.
Are you using any special tools there? Or is it just normal pop up normal page with another pop-up or with another embed form
Using either Justuno, Optimonk, or Privy. It's pretty easy to set up. We've set those specific tools up. Pop up shows up on the back end, I've seen in her good things about people using attentiveness to step pop up.
PostScript also has something now. I've personally never used quedo forms, but the people who do it, it's the same process. Like it's literally just putting in new input fields…
Form two thank you pages. On the thank you page, there’s another form. Is that it?.
Yeah. So we're not doing anything crazy here. I can do that. You can do this with Klaviyo and PostScript. And all the other ones. You just gotta make two forms.
Yeah, like literally field input field one... form one is Email. Input field two is Phone Number.
Then you match the page that they're on to the number that I just said. All of our things like how can you keep this as simple as possible, especially for the customer.
Because like any friction you introduce there, especially on a mobile device, like most of the brands we work with, they're anywhere from 70 to 90% of the traffic is mobile.
So that mobile experience is so important for us. Let’s just keep it super simple.
Imagine that everybody has really fat thumbs that it's really hard for them to type in the text. Make a really big, really simple. The beauty is you set it, you optimize it a little bit, and then you let it run until you change your offers.
Yeah, that's cool. So just to really simplify for everybody go now just create a new page on your Shopify store and drop your SMS subscription in there and make it a 12%. Offer whatever you want to do, and then just have your email firing at all times.
Then you set up the thank you page for your email to be like, you know, what's better than 10? (It’s) 12. Then each CV and get him to sign up for SMS and send them a 12% off discount code. That's going to grow both your list honestly.
Yeah, and the beauty is it doesn't cannibalize either. I think that's a common misconception that a lot of people have is like, “If I move people from my email list to my SMS list, am I gonna lose email revenue, for every brand we've worked with, we've seen SMS, add net new revenue and email revenue increase.”
So one brand, for example, their email from 2019 to 2020, increased 200%. And their SMS lists drove more revenue than their email revenue did. A lot of people don't think about how the channels can be built on each other and can improve the other performance.
I think, is a really important piece that as more brands get into it, they'll need to figure out but once you do again, that ATM concept like you just put money in, you get money out. And it's fairly predictable as well, if you really project out that performance.
Yeah. And that's why you see everyone like running into consumer packaged goods and DTC right now and that's a waterfall. There are two, two giant players in the Shopify ecosystem just got 15 and $35 million, respectively, investment today's so bold, got 35 investment today and rewinded 15.
I do believe I'm recalling this from seeing it in slack earlier. But you know, I mean, there it's the industry is growing rapidly right now. So it's pretty cool.
Yeah, I mean, I think the coolest part is like I feel like all of us like “Oh, it's it's growing, it's growing. It's growing.”
But like ecommerce, as an industry, it’s still small. I wouldn't say it's not tiny anymore. These past 18 months have been nuts. But like most of (the) money spent, still isn't an ecom.
There's so much headroom, and there's so much growth. This is a big shift for me, in the past five or six months. Everything that's been done today, when we look at the full map and 20-30 years is barely the start of where things are going to go.
Which just means that there's a lot more growth for everybody. As long as you figure out where you fit into that greater ecosystem.
Yeah, it's... there are really so many cool products that come out too. And you know, the sky's the limit, it's gonna be really cool. I mean, Jeremy, thanks for coming on today.
And I'm sure there were a million other things that we could have talked about. But is there anything that's top of mind for you that I forgot to bring up that you want to leave our guests with today?
I think as ad costs continue to rise, and with all the crazy stuff going on with iOS 14, attribution, all those other things. Two things I want to leave everybody with. First, own(ing) channels are always the best, because nobody can... you want to build your house on rented land.
And for coming from somebody who... I work in a brand, we used to spend hundreds of 1000s of dollars every month on paid media plus influencers plus PR to drive traffic to the site.
I got burned really bad by that and our own channels. That's what motivated me to get into SMS, and really invest in email and all these other channels. Really think about that.
Then two, just when you think about your marketing as a whole, everybody's so obsessed with row as and needs specific numbers. At the end of the day, look at your financial statements. At the end of the month, look at how much sales you drove, look at how much your marketing costs have cost you in marketing, and just divide that like your channel performance, all these specific things.
I think people get too wrapped up in the, “I need to optimize everything.” Take a step back and look at everything holistically.
That's 80/20 man. It's 80/20.
Yeah, and like I see so many brands are like, “Oh, well, we can't attribute this new marketing channel. So let's cut it.” Then they're upset that their whatever other like their email or the search goes down, and like the thinking about the greater view and not being so worried about this.
I'm a numbers person, I call myself a data nerd. And I'm obsessed about all that. But like, at the end of the day like really just taking it and going back to the fundamentals of what's our margin, right? How much sales?
Do we need to be profitable and make money and keep growing? And then what is the acceptable marketing cost? Kind of like how Amazon does a cost? Like what is that acceptable margin cost that we need to make things work? And then get creative in that solution?
Those are the two things I think everybody really needs to spend more time doing. Because you can get wrapped up in all these crazy different things.
But if you aren't doing those two things well, you can't build an enduring brand. And at least I hope most of the people listening. That's their goal as well. So I think it's really important that everybody just really goes back to the fundamentals on how to build a business and like in that respect.
Yeah, I mean, I say it all the time. If everything's important, nothing is important, and you're just gonna be running around and nothing's gonna get done. And then I'll leave people with this and share it with you.
I was talking to a potential client yesterday and they were sharing what they're spending on ad costs, and you know, they're sending this traffic directly to Their Shopify product page.
They're like we can't prove it. But our sales double, every time we double our budget, our sales double on Amazon every time we double our budget going to our Shopify site, they're like, we can't prove it. But we know that it's there.
And so there's a lot of that stuff that just like if you are advertising and you got a product that people want, like, you know, some of that stuff isn't actually readable. It's very hard to prove, but it's just going to increase sales in the long term.
Yeah, definitely. And so I think like just always keeping things in perspective, I guess, to summarize, my point would be, that's what I want to leave everybody with.
Awesome. We're gonna link to all your fun stuff in the notes, and I'll try to find the podcast that I was on to make sure that's in the notes, too.
People want to hear us double down and talk about more nerdy stuff. Thanks for coming on. I'm sure I'll be back soon.
Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks, everybody.
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