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Ep. 119 - The Frameworks to Grow ANY Business is not Rocket Science with Matt Edmundson

Matt Edmundson is the CEO of the Jersey Company, a group of health, wellness and beauty companies that deliver products and services to over 120,000 loyal customers in the UK and Europe. 

The group includes the eCommerce business Jersey Beauty Company – which went online in 2006 and since then they have achieved global sales of $75million, that’s over 7 million products shipped.

Matt is also an Ecommerce Coach and creator of the Jam Jar Course and the Ecommerce Masterclass. 

His goal is to show aspiring entrepreneurs sure and simple steps to getting a digital business off the ground and seasoned entrepreneurs on how to take their business to the next level.

In This Conversation We Discuss: 

  • [00:00] Intro
  • [00:38] Sponsor: Klaviyo klaviyo.com/honest 
  • [02:29] How Matt came into Ecom
  • [04:06] The birth of Jersey Beauty Company
  • [06:53] The 00’s marketing landscape
  • [08:10] Marketing only SEEMS easy back then
  • [08:39] The downsides to being an overnight success
  • [10:05] The shift to better customer service
  • [13:24] Sponsor: Avalara avalara.com/honest
  • [14:13] Netflix is a masterclass in pricing
  • [14:39] Matt’s role in Jersey
  • [16:23] The whole goal of this podcast
  • [17:03] Matt only stumbled upon consulting
  • [18:34] Creating your own edge
  • [20:33] Framework shenanigans
  • [21:20] JERSEY Framework: Jam Jar
  • [23:17] Product-market fit and dropshipping
  • [24:39] Sponsor: Gorgias gorgias.grsm.io/honest
  • [25:29] JERSEY Framework: Engineer
  • [26:28] JERSEY Framework: Resonate
  • [27:51] JERSEY Framework: Send
  • [29:03] Marketing is NOT your first step
  • [30:39] Unnecessary marketing spend
  • [31:52] JERSEY Framework: Experience
  • [37:25] Sponsor: Rewind rewind.com/honest
  • [38:08] JERSEY Framework: Yo-yo
  • [40:09] Parallels with Chase’s framework
  • [43:10] Where AOV fits on the JERSEY Framework
  • [44:30] The importance of these frameworks
  • [46:13] Matt’s Ecom Masterclass

Resources:

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 Transcript:

Matt Edmundson  

Doubling your traffic is not going to double your sales. But if we invest in your conversion, we may triple or quadruple your sales

Chase Clymer  

Welcome to Honest Ecommerce, where we're dedicated to cutting through the BS and finding actionable advice for online store owners. 

I'm your host, Chase Clymer. And I believe running an online business does not have to be complicated or a guessing game. 

If you're struggling with scaling your sales, Electric Eye is here to help. To apply to work with us visit electriceye.io/connect to learn more. Now let's get on with the show..

Sponsor: Klaviyo  

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Klaviyo is the ultimate marketing platform for ecommerce. With targeted segmentation, email automation, SMS marketing, and more… 

Klaviyo helps you create your ideal customer experience. 

See why Klaviyo is trusted by more than 50,000 brands, like Living Proof, Solo Stove, and Huckberry. Keep your customers coming back. Get a free trial at klaviyo.com/honest. That’s K-L-A-V-I-Y-O.com/honest.

Chase Clymer  

Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Honest Ecommerce. I'm your host, Chase Clymer. 

And today [we] welcome into the show a fantastic guy. I've talked to him before and we realized that our frameworks are similar. So I'm excited to get into that. But from across the pond, I'm welcoming Matt Edmundson. How are you doing today?

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. Hey, Chase. Good. Good to be with you from across the pond, as you say, Yes. That's more [than a] pond that divides us.

Chase Clymer  

Yes. Yes. It's a very big pond. So Matt is the CEO of the Jersey Company. So you guys, are you a roll up? You've got a few companies underneath you. How do you want to explain that?

Matt Edmundson  

I'm still trying to figure it out. 

Chase Clymer  

(laughs)

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. (laughs) We've got our own online sites. So we have... The Jersey Beauty Company is probably the most famous one with our own online sites. 

But I also run an agency over here and I run a coaching and consulting company all around ecommerce. Yeah, it's a long complex story. But it's fun. It is fun. And I'm busy all the time.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. So you guys have sold to almost 120,000 or more than 120,000 customers. You guys achieved global sales of around $75 million. So Matt knows what he's doing with his portfolio of companies. 

So take me back to the beginning. How did you cut your teeth in Ecom? How did you come down this path?

Matt Edmundson  

It's a really great question Chase, actually. Like many things you do in life, I got here by accident. It was not intentional. It was just a complete accident. I used to sell... In the days gone by, I used to sell saunas and steam rooms, and I used to design health spas. 

And a friend of mine came to me one day and said that he was looking for a website. He heard of these things called websites. This was back in the late 90s. And he thought he should get one. And did I know anybody that could do it? 

Well, I knew only one company at the time that could create websites, and they charged a small fortune. So I said to him, "Well listen, if you buy me the software..." Which back then was Illustrator... Not Illustrator. Or was it called Dreamweaver? I should remember Dreamweaver days. 

Chase Clymer  

I do. 

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah yeah yeah. I said to him, "If you buy me Dreamweaver, I'll figure it out." And we just shook hands on it. And then I figured out how to use the software and write websites. And that's... 

It wasn't too long after that where we then decided "Well, if we can do these websites, surely we can do it where people can buy products on our website?" Because that was starting to take off in the late 90s. The early noughties. 

And that was basically just a guy coming into my office asking me a question. I thought, "Well, I can have a go at that and see what happens."

Chase Clymer  

So you were always a tinkerer. A creative guy. Always accepting challenges. Some of that rings true with me. I remember the first time someone asked me if I could make a website. I was like, "Maybe? Let's find out."

Matt Edmundson  

(laughs)I don't know. Let's have a go. And what's the worst that could happen? Right? 

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. We're back here. And you just don't have a website. And I've learned that I can't make one. But actually, I could make one. And now we're here. So (laughs) it is a pretty fun experiment.

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah yea yea.

Chase Clymer  

Alright. So after that you figured out that you could make websites? Where did the birth of Jersey Beauty come from and your first... Would we call that your first success? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Matt Edmundson  

Sure. It was our first major success. I've set up ecommerce sites before then. The first one was in 2002. And I set that up. And 6 months later, I sold it. And that was a great little project to do that. That really got me thirsty and hungry for Ecommerce. 

And in 2006, a friend of mine who lived and still lives on the small island of Jersey, which is... So if you're not familiar with it, it's a small island off the north coast of France. It's like 45 square miles. 

It's a tiny place and it's independently British. So it's kind of British, but it's got its own parliament. It's got its own rules. It's got its own way of doing things. And there's about 100,000 people on the island of Jersey and it's a beautiful place. 

He lived in Jersey. And at the time what happened was I said to him, "You should really do an online business because Jersey had this really quirky law which meant that they could ship goods to the UK without VAT." Which is a sales goods... They're good sales tax. 

Now, VAT in the UK, the sales tax is actually currently at 20%. Okay. So when you could ship goods to the UK without VAT, you were 20% cheaper instantly, but still maintain the same profit margins. 

And so Andy was like, "Well, what could we sell online?" And so we looked... He owned a couple of health clubs at the time. And he had some skincare products on the shelves. 

And we're like, "Well, let's just sell those and see what happens." It's not the way I counseled people to do it now. I got to be honest with you, Chase. We got into that with the framework. But we were just like, "Let's just give it a go and see what happens." 

And we launched in August 2006, that website. And we thought with our original thinking, we did a bit of research and planning. 

We thought that by the end of 2006, we'd managed to sell about £10,000 worth of product, which is about $14,000. If we could sell that amount of product by the end of the year, we would dance a jig. We would be on target. 

We will be like "This is working really great." And so when we launched at the end of August, we obviously had September, October, November and December trading. Okay. So there were those sort of 4 months of trading. 

We didn't do the £10,000 we initially estimated that was our initial target. We did £400,000 worth of sales, which was massively different to what we were expecting. And it just blew up. It instantly went big. 

And it grew from there. Yeah yeah yeah. It was just... It was a phenomenal ride. It was a phenomenal journey. So that's how Jersey started.

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. With the launch of that.... So that was back in 2006.

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. That's right. 

Chase Clymer  

  1. So the marketing game was extremely different back then.

Matt Edmundson  

Oh yes.

Chase Clymer  

I'm assuming some of the practices and strategies are going to ring true as well. So when you guys got that online, you made the website, how did you educate people that it existed?

Matt Edmundson  

Honestly, we had a very simple strategy back then. We were just like, "Let's just do Google really well." Facebook really wasn't a thing from a marketing point of view back then. I mean, there were a few things going on, but not like today. 

So we focused on Google. We focused on SEO and we focused on Google AdWords. And you could do that back in 2006. We... The way we built in 2006 is not how you would do it if you're starting today. But back then the opportunity was there. That was incredible. We just literally dominated Google AdWords. 

Because of the way that we could distribute from Jersey, because of the pricing advantage that we had,it didn't take long for word to spread amongst the people that bought those products that actually we could ship it to you cheaper than most people. 

And word of mouth was prolific. It was absolutely prolific. These were the days when you could send an email blast out to people, there weren't any spam laws. (laughs) There weren't any right or wrong ways of doing this, we would just send an email out. 

And most people would open email because they weren't getting many emails. And then they would forward them to their friends because they thought their friends would be interested. 

And it really captured people's imaginations. It was all about the right place, right time for us. 

Chase Clymer  

Yeah, I can only imagine. And I feel like there's some people listening to the podcast today that are just getting started. And they're like, "Man, it was so much easier back then." 

And that's all well wishes. But let's talk about now. Let's pivot a little bit more. So nowadays, you're helping people launch brands just like that. Is that correct?

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. And I actually... Chase, I don't know, if it was easier back then. I think there were things that were easier back then like some of the marketing and maybe dominated on Google and Google AdWords was a bit easier, and definitely a lot cheaper back then.

Chase Clymer  

Well, you know what, I will clarify what I meant to say. "It seems like it was easier back then." is probably what people are thinking. 

Starting a business is always difficult. Let's clarify a bit there. You guys found tremendous, almost overnight, success. 

Let's talk about what broke, what went wrong with finding that success. What happens when your business almost goes viral? You know what I mean?

Matt Edmundson  

Oh. It was crazy. One of the big problems that we had... 2 big problems that we had to  think about. 1 was getting enough stock to fulfill the orders. The problem that Jersey had, it had this fat advantage, but it was not set up or geared for the sudden onslaught of internet companies that were there. 

And it was the delivery systems that weren't great. And so because it was a small island, it takes several hours for the boats to get from England to Jersey. 

So if you had bad seas --Which if you know anything about England, weather is not our strongest point, is it? (laughs) We're known for bad weather. So bad seas would happen a lot. 

So just the distribution was a nightmare. How do you set up a warehouse quickly and deliver the parcels? How do you find a reliable shipping company? These were all good problems to have. But they were fundamental problems. 

How do you pick and pack in order the same day that it comes in so your customer gets it the next day? Because all these things started to happen and we had to make sure that we were on top of our delivery game. 

So yeah. That was a lot of stuff that we had to do to pick it up. They were the things that almost broke us

Chase Clymer  

Yeah, I feel like setting expectations, customer service... These are things people almost... 

Matt Edmundson  

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clymer  

...overlook. Because the northstar of... "Wow, we're doing crazy sales." That's cool, but you're gonna get crazy returns if you're not fulfilling it. You know what I mean?

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. Absolutely. And with the internet these days, if you give any ounce of bad customer service your customers are going to tell the whole world. 

There's that famous phrase: "If you give good customer service, your customer might tell a friend. If you give bad customer service, your customer is going to tell the whole world." And that was... That was true then and it's true now. In fact, the point... We did a major pivot in 2012. The start of 2012. So Jersey had been running for 5 years. 

And we moved the whole company from Jersey to the UK because we'd lost the VAT advantage. That loophole got closed. And we shifted it to the UK because of the shipping and the warehousing and the ability to get parcels to customers the next day was becoming more and more significant. 

It was becoming a bigger and bigger part of what customers wanted. And so we made this fundamental business change. A friend of mine who lives in Dallas, actually --Dallas, Texas-- He drew on a piece of paper for me once. A triangle. And if you can follow along with this drawing in your head. 

So he drew this triangle on a piece of paper. And in each corner of the triangle, he wrote... In one corner, he wrote the price. And another corner, he wrote quality. And then in another corner, he wrote service. And he said to me, "Matt, you have to pick 2 because you can't do all three." 

In other words, you can't have a quality product at a low price and give great customer service. You can't give... You have to have more profit in your product to be able to do those 2 things: Have quality products and give great customer service. So Jersey, for the first 5 years of its life... 

And the way I sum it up is this: Jersey was a low price, quality product model. We got a quality product and we sold it at a low price. And it became all about the volume and shipping it out. But it meant our customer service was not great. 

So in 2012, when we changed that, we changed deliberately to a quality product. The product stayed the same, but we moved much more to our high customer service business which meant our prices had to increase. Okay. 

And so in 2012, our sales dropped by 20%. Not by 20%. Sorry. They dropped by about 10% in 2012 because our prices had gone up. But by the end of 2012. So we've been... After the end of the second year of doing this little experiment, our sales were 20% higher than when we moved it over from Jersey. 

So there was this initial slump but because of the focus on customer service, because that was becoming more and more of an issue. Our sales increased overall by 20%. From when we first moved Jersey. It was quite outstanding to see this. 

Again, it's quite significant growth when we changed our business model.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. And there's something to be said, and this goes across every type of business, service, product, [or] whatever. 

When you raise your prices, you're going to lose customers. But the customers that stick around are higher quality. 

Yeah, it's amazing. People will have a million questions about something that's pretty low cost. But once it kind of gets into that more value-based pricing, the questions go away. 

Matt Edmundson  

Absolutely. 

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Chase Clymer  

It's a fantastic world to be in. So I guess... If you want a masterclass on pricing and raising your prices, look at what Netflix has done over the last 5-10 years. 

They [were] increasing their prices and they'll lose 10% of their customers but they did the math and they still come out ahead somehow and it's fantastic.

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. And I wonder how many of those customers that they [lost] end up coming back because they missed the service so much.

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. It is a very quality product. 

Matt Edmundson  

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clymer  

Alright, so you guys have raised your prices. You've moved to the UK to get things to your customers faster. How involved are you still in Jersey Beauty?

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah, I'm still the MD. [I] still run Jersey Beauty Company. We've got a... I gotta be honest with you. 

We've got a great team that works with me and that's probably the area that I focus on the most. I don't do, for example, coding anymore. 

We've got a team of developers and they do not let me anywhere near the code. (laughs) It turns out my skills and expertise are not any good. (laughs)

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. You can't have stuff glued together [or] duct-taped anymore when you guys are doing that kind of volume. 

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah, apparently not. Apparently not. So (laughs) I've been kicked off of that. I still really loved marketing. I get very much involved in marketing. I get very involved in the fulfillment and the distribution side of things. 

And so I'm really keen on that. But we've got a great team. There's a lady called Michelle, who runs Jersey. She is an absolute diamond.  She's wonderful. We've got marketing teams now. Yeah. 

So it's very different. But I would still say, it still takes up a good portion of my time because that's where I play. It's where I experiment. 

So we do the coaching, we do the consulting, we've got the agency where we do ecommerce for other people. And it's like, I figure it all out in Jersey before I go and tell our clients what it is that they should do to mean it quite like that.

Chase Clymer  

Oh, I absolutely know what you mean. Yeah, I play... Well, we don't play as much. We make very educated guesses with our clients' permission. 

But that's what we do on our side of things. So working with about 12 people at a time doing some really, really fun stuff, finding out what works, and then we kind of disseminate it down through Honest Ecommerce and share it with everybody else. 

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. 

Chase Clymer  

The whole goal of Honest Ecommerce, as we build out that ecosystem is trying to help people go from doing 100,000 a year in sales to doing a million plus. 

And then hopefully they want to work with Electric Eye because they've heard the stuff that we've shared. And yeah. That's the master plan, everybody. So...

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah.

Chase Clymer  

There you go. 

Matt Edmundson  

(laughs) And there's no secrets behind the master plan. It's...

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. No, not at all. Also, we can't afford to work with everybody. We don't have enough bandwidth. There's...

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah.

Chase Clymer  

We're a very high touch, high-end agency. So we can only work with a certain (number) of people at a time. So we need to sign one client every other month and we're doing way more than we should be. 

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. 

Chase Clymer  

So let's pivot it back to you. And you've got a love for Jersey, because you have since developed the JERSEY Framework. So where did that come from? And let's get into that and talk about that.

Matt Edmundson  

Sure. So what happened was, as Jersey became bigger and bigger, and more and more successful, more and more people came to me and said, "Can you come help us with our ecommerce business? Can you give us the benefit of your advice for whatever it's worth?” 

And again, this was purely one of those things that I wasn't looking to get into this whole field of coaching or consulting or doing the courses. I just wasn't. It just came about because people asked a question. 

And it became obvious. And you'll know this Chase, right? When you talk to people, and you do the coaching, the teaching, whatever, whatever language you use...

Chase Clymer  

Mm-hmm.

Matt Edmundson  

...you need a way to explain it. You need a way to explain your methodology in a way that works for other companies that they can implement it. And so we came up with a framework that just so happened to be this  6 segments. 

And we worked hard to try and figure out how we could make that say JERSEY for obvious reasons, because it did tie-in with our own Ecommerce business. But that again, it was just like I said. Somebody's asking a question. 

And we're just like, how do I take what I know intuitively? How do I distill that into a sentence or two that is going to help somebody else go, "Okay. I can take that, I can implement that. And I can make that work in my own business. And that's what the framework is all about.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. You know what, it's funny. When you name something, it becomes that much cooler. And it's such a strong marketing move. But the other day, I was watching CNN, because I'm an American and I'm glued to the TV. 

Matt Edmundson  

(laughs)

Chase Clymer  

[I was] watching this and there was a commercial for one of the new, invisible retainer, "straighten your teeth" companies. I don't believe it was the major one. 

But anyways, they had this thing on there and it was like "The only one that has proven 'smart migration technology' involved." And I was like, "They just straight up made up that word..."

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah yeah yeah.

Chase Clymer  

"...and used it in their advertising." And I just think that's such a funny marketing thing where you can just create your own edge by just inventing something.

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. And companies do it all the time, don't they? And you see things and it's like... (laughs) There's a name. The name escapes me for it. 

But there is a name, which describes this phenomenon. But yeah, we see it on this side of the pond as well. People just make stuff up all the time. 

Chase Clymer  

And it works! 

Matt Edmundson  

It totally works.

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. So for anyone out there who has an Ecommerce company and you want to create an edge, just market it. Market one. Just make one. Invent something. It's fine. It works. You're not technically lying. I don't know. 

Maybe that's getting into libel and I'm not a lawyer. So probably read some laws. But if you have something that's unique about your product, and you can put a name to it, there's your marketing edge.

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. And you see this all the time. The beauty industry, to be honest with you, they'll come up with names for ingredients that's, in effect, a standard ingredient. 

But if they name it differently, it feels like it's got something different. So if you had dry skin, and you tried this product and it didn't work, maybe you should try this product, because that's that product but it's got this ingredient that no one else has got. 

And we'll try that. And it's just a made up name or a fancy name for an ingredient that's already in there.

Chase Clymer  

Or "our exclusive formula."

Matt Edmundson  

 Yeah yeah yeah. All those words and phrases. And you're just like, "Okay."

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. Alright, so that went down a fun marketing rabbit hole. But let's get back to the JERSEY framework.

Matt Edmundson  

(laughs)

Chase Clymer  

I'm sure that your framework is amazing. Hey, we've got our own framework that we are going to start preaching and using in our marketing as well. But at the end of the day, all the frameworks are just a way to help someone understand the concepts better. 

Matt Edmundson  

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clymer  

So let's do that. So how does the JERSEY framework work? Do we start with J? What is it?

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. And I'm curious to see how this works alongside what you've done, Chase, to be fair. And it's always good to compare and take notes.

Chase Clymer  

I'm still noodling on mine. So maybe I'll borrow some stuff from you. Who knows?

Matt Edmundson  

Okay. Sure. Just call it "JERSEY 2" or something. I don't mind.

Chase Clymer  

Well it's New Jersey. How does that sound?

Matt Edmundson  

(laughs) That's a fair comment. Yeah yeah. Do that. The UK version and the US version. So yeah. (laughs) So we start off with the J, which we call "Jam Jar". And so jam obviously is added. I'm sure you have jam jars in the States, right? 

Chase Clymer  

We do. 

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah yeah. That represents the product. Okay. So we always say that you start at the product. We start with the Jam Jar. We start with J. 

And the idea here is that we curate high demand products that create profit through knowable sales patterns. That's what a jam jar is all about. It's about finding products that we can sell online. 

And I always tell people, they've got to start with a product before they start with anything else. Because if you've not got a product that people are going to buy... You can have the most beautiful website, you can have the most incredible infrastructure, but nobody's buying it. 

Whereas I've seen really strong demand products, high-demand products on the ugliest website in the world, and they're selling by the truckload. 

Chase Clymer  

Yep. 

Matt Edmundson  

And so you've got to start with the product. 

Chase Clymer  

Yep. 

Matt Edmundson  

Have you got a product that people want to buy? Is it a high demand product? Is it going to generate your profit? And is this all done through knowable sales patterns that you can tap into?

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. So what I harp about. I don't want to interrupt you after every one. But if I have something to say, I guess maybe I will. 

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah, go for it. 

Chase Clymer  

So what I do is I tell people, like the first thing is product-market fit. And that's exactly what you're talking about here with J on the Jam Jars. 

Again, if you have an ugly website and it's still selling, you're onto something. You're offering your product and great, the market wants it. That's product-market fit. 

But you can go and spend 6figures plus on a beautiful website. But if no one wants your product, you just wasted money.

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. And I've actually seen that a lot. I can tell you the story of a company that spent $120,000 on their website, and their sales just went through the floor, the moment they upgraded it to this super expensive website. 

[It's] just crazy, Crazy, crazy stuff to do. Anyway, we digress. There are stories that we can definitely get into. 

Chase Clymer  

Mm-hmm.

Matt Edmundson  

But yeah, once you started with the product, once you figured out:Is this a product [that] somebody is willing to buy, somebody is willing to pay money for?.. And this is where I think... You saw it a lot a few years ago. 

There was a mad rush for people to set up a Shopify website. And they went to AliExpress, they found a product that was cheap on AliExpress. Let's just say it's sunglasses. 

And they'd put them on their website for 10 times the amount that people would buy them on AliExpress. You would then market that website and you would get them dropshipped in from China and they take 5 to 6 weeks to arrive. 

It was a really popular thing to do. And a few people made reasonable money at it. Most people failed. And they failed because fundamentally, they didn't take the time to understand if the market was ready to buy this product or not. Was it a high demand product? No. 

There's a reason you can buy it for two or three bucks on AliExpress. Because no one wants to spend big money on it. They just don't. Now there are a few stories and a few gems out there that you can get as long as you take the time to do the research on the product. 

And don't just assume because it's cheap, I can sell it for 10 times that amount where I am, I'm gonna make a shitload of money. It just doesn't work out that way anymore.

Chase Clymer  

Not at all. It's so hard. The dropshipping model was popular a few years back. It's just so dead.

And when people come to me and I can recognize the patterns in what they're saying, I go "Hey, you got sold on an old dream. That's wrong. That's not gonna work anymore. Here's why." 

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. Exactly. 

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Matt Edmundson  

So, that was the J. The E --the first E in JERSEY-- we call Engineer. So this is about engineering. This is about the website. So it's about building an adaptable platform that provides a best buying experience and integrates with your business systems. 

So if you're just starting out, you've got a wide range of choices. If you're already up and running and your business is doing super well, it becomes a lot more complex because whatever you choose, whatever you do, has got to integrate with your existing business systems. 

And the advice here whenever you're choosing a website is to choose something that's going to work for you, but predominantly works for your customer. Okay? 

Chase Clymer  

Mm-hmm.

Matt Edmundson  

So you've got to build a website around your customer, around what it is they want around how they're going to buy your product. 

So you build that platform. It's all about engineering, building the website. But you don't start on the website until you've got your product.

Chase Clymer  

Awesome. Awesome. I'm just gonna bite my tongue until the end of it now. 

Matt Edmundson  

(laughs)

Chase Clymer  

I'm writing notes. I'm writing notes. 

Matt Edmundson  

Okay. So this third step of the journey framework, we call [it] Resonate. And so we've got our products, we've got our website... So when somebody is on our website, we've got to think about things like their buying journey

We've got to think about things like their buying experience. What's their navigation like? How's the search functionality work? Have we categorized products? What should we do? What should we not do? What's best practices for our industry to enable people to quickly find what it is they're looking for? 

But more than that, how can we convert the visitor? How do we get them to buy? But how do we engage with them if they're not ready to buy? 

So the majority of people visiting your website are not going to buy [for the] first time? Is there a way I can onramp that person? Is there a way I could connect with them before they're ready to buy and give them whatever help and information they need to help them choose to buy from us? How do I onramp them? 

And for me, that comes in this whole section here about Resonate. This is about building that brilliant customer buying experience on your website.

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. Again, I've got some awesome notes here. It's funny how you are very, very similar to some of the things that I have. We're just putting them in different orders. Because at the end of the day, we're not reinventing the wheel here. (laughs)

Matt Edmundson  

No.

Chase Clymer  

It's pretty straightforward.

Matt Edmundson  

It's amazing how simple Ecommerce is. Isn't it? 

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson  

"I need a product. I need a website. I need to make sure that my website works when people get on it." So this is not rocket science so far. The fourth step is Send. This is a one that I instantly get asked about by people all over the world. They want to go straight to marketing. 

So for me Send [is] how do I send people to my website. So you've got to find your customers, direct them to your website in order that they buy from you. And that's the critical thing that sometimes I think people have missed in marketing. 

You can pay thousands and thousands of dollars to have people go to your website and read a blog post, which is cool if you just want 10,000 visitors. But I'm much more interested in 1000 visitors that may be ready to buy or maybe will buy from me in the future. 

I don't care how many people ultimately read the blog post. I care about how many people buy. And so it's about getting the right traffic to your website... 

Chase Clymer  

Yes.

Matt Edmundson  

...and understanding Ecommerce marketing. Getting your head around the different aspects of Ecommerce marketing, understanding what works for you, understanding what works for your customer and just going straight for that. No problem.

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. Again, you're hitting on things that I always bring up and it's… Usually when people are reaching out to agencies, consultants, freelancers or whatever, they are specifically requesting marketing help which is NOT the first step ever.

Matt Edmundson  

No. No. This was brought home to me a couple of years ago. A guy approached me and said, "Matt listen, I want to double the traffic to my website. I've got about a £100,000 budget to spend on marketing. Can you help me?" 

was like, "Well, I'm sure I can help you but is the £100,000... Do you want to spend [that] on marketing? Is that the right way to spend that £100,000?" I said "Give me a couple of days and let me find out." 

I did some research on the industry, did some research on his competitors, did some research on his website, and I simply said to him, "I think if you spent probably about £60,000 of that [budget] revamping your website and getting the customer experience on your website much better, you would convert much more traffic than you currently do.” 

“I don't think you have a traffic problem. I think you have a conversion problem. You're getting the same numbers as your competitors are to their websites but they're converting probably 4 times more than you are.”

“So if we invest in your conversion, doubling your traffic is not going to double your sales. But if we invest in your conversion, we may triple or quadruple your sales.”

Chase Clymer  

I have that conversation once a week.

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. It's a really common theme, isn't it? It's really, really common. Or the other one. They come to you and say, "Right. How do I do Facebook ads?" 

That's a really popular one. "How do I do Facebook ads?" My first question is, "Are your customers on Facebook?"

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. That's something that you need to consider.

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah yeah yeah. Right. If you're marketing to teenagers, Facebook ads aren't going to help you. They're just not. You need to be on Snapchat. There's a whole... You gotta go where your customers... Understand where your customers lie. 

And another company he was talking to this week wants to do a big, mad customer acquisition strategy. [They're] gonna spend probably around £200-£250 grand on ads. That's a lot of money to spend on ads, on paid media. 

But when you dig down a little bit, can you answer this one simple question. "When was the last time you emailed your customers?" They were emailing them maybe 4 or 5 times a year. 

So I'm like, "Well, why would you spend that much money on getting new customers, when you've got really, really bad email marketing going on?" 

And it's like, you're paying all this money to bring them in but then you're not increasing the lifetime value by regularly emailing them, by regularly having that engaged email campaigning. It was really odd. 

And so you've got to get the balance right in terms of your marketing. Throwing money at it is generally not the answer although it can oftentimes be helpful. 

You've got to think about who your customers are, where they are, what's going to engage with them, and how can we deliver that in a way that is consistent and meaningful and gets them to buy from my website.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. Now was the second E (of the JERSEY Framework) Engage? Or did I just make that up?

Matt Edmundson  

No. The second E, which we're coming on to next --which is the 5th step of the framework-- is Experience. 

Chase Clymer  

Ahh.

Matt Edmundson  

So this for me was highlighted with Jersey really, really acutely. A few years ago, we did this thing. When we moved it over from Jersey to the UK, the first thing I did was I went and purchased the exact same products from all of my competitors. 

So I placed the same order on everybody's website, including our own. And what I wanted to do was I wanted to see which company got their products for me first, which ones charged me what, what packaging it came in, what courier they used... I wanted to understand that in a lot more detail. So we purchased from all of our competitors' websites and they came... 

The products came in a whole manner of things. So one set of products came in what I call a jiffy bag, which is basically a padded envelope. The one with a bubble wrap inside.

Chase Clymer  

Mm-hmm.

Matt Edmundson  

And they're called jiffy bags here in the UK. We were the only ones that were sending the products out in the protective cardboard boxes. Well, that gave us an edge. That was cool.

And then I noticed, when I looked at our boxes, I thought, "Jeez, these are just really dreary and boring." So the average spend on our website is about £70 which is a lot of money to spend on skincare. That's about $100. 

So if you've got that as an average order value, you're buying this because you have... Obviously you want to have healthy skin, but you feel like this is you treating yourself. This is you doing something truly remarkable for your own skin, your own well being. 

And so just sending it out in a jiffy bag or in a brown cardboard box didn't make any sense to me. 

So what we did was we took our cardboard box, we had them printed on the inside, not on the outside so when you opened it up, there was this beautiful message/story on the inside. 

We double layered the box so it felt like you were opening a gift. We wrapped the whole thing in tissue paper, which again, I wanted it to be like a gift opening experience, as opposed to just a brown box experience. 

And then the other thing that we did, which totally transformed our whole experience where customers were concerned was we changed our sort of filler material. 

So if you order something from Amazon, they basically shove it in a brown box and then they throw a load of brown paper in there just to pad the box out a little bit and stop whatever's in the box moving around. It's this filler material. 

Chase Clymer  

Mm-hmm.

Matt Edmundson  

But we were using the plastic bubbles for a while and we were like, well, these just aren't very environmentally friendly. Sure they're cheap to produce. They're lightweight. So shipping is not a problem. 

But we led to that and we thought well, actually, one, we want to be more environmentally friendly, and two, it's just again, dull and boring. How can we... One of our values in our company is just fun; "Let's have some fun." 

And so what we did was we took out the plastic bubbles and replaced them with popcorn. Okay, it took me months to sort of figure out how we were going to do this and we sort of brainstormed this for ages and eventually we came up with the idea of popcorn. 

We tried... I don't know how many different types of corn we've tried over the years but we've tried plenty. But in our warehouse now, we have literally popcorn machines going all the time generating popcorn, just creating popcorn. 

And popcorn is brilliant, because it's lightweight, it's biodegradable, and it's just a bit quirky, and it's a bit fun.

And so we put that in the box with the products, we wrapped it all in tissue paper, we had to put a little bit of a sticker on the tissue paper telling people not to eat the popcorn because it was not produced in what you'd call a food safe environment. 

It's just a bit of fun. So we're like “Compost it, give it to the birds.” The amount of emails we got from people saying the popcorn tasted lovely...

Chase Clymer  

(laughs)

Matt Edmundson  

We were like. "Please don't eat it!" So we put a little sticker on the tissue paper, we double stacked the box so it felt like you were opening a gift. And what happened was everybody started posting about their packaging on social media. 

They became a really good talking point, to the point where if I looked at how many social media posts we'd had about our packaging before, we only ever had complaints that the box would send the product in was too big. 

No one posts about packaging. But here we have a whole raft of people who post about packaging on social media. They love and rave about the popcorn, it just sort of ties in with who they are. 

And for me, this is the Experience. This comes down to this whole second E: this customer experience sector. What is the experience you're giving your customers after they have pressed the Order Now button? 

They've given you their credit card details, what happens from that point onwards really matters. It is super essential, because the first time they have that box in their hands is the first time that it's real. Up until that point, it's just been all pixels... 

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. 

Matt Edmundson  

...but now they've got the real product. What kind of experience are you wanting to give your customer when they get that box? 

And it's a point for me of massive differentiation because most companies don't think about it. But you can do something relatively cheap, but relatively special, that really resonates with who your customers are just on the opening experience.

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. This goes to almost all facets of your business when it's in relation to your customer. If you can just do just a little bit extra in a couple dozen places, you're gonna be a world apart from your nearest competitor. 

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Chase Clymer  

So we're rounding it out. we're coming up on the end of the framework. So what is Y?

Matt Edmundson  

So Y we call Yo-yo. And this is where we say what you want to do here is work really hard to build a repeatable and referral business. 

And so I see a lot of companies coming to me all the time, coming to me and saying, "I need to grow. I need to grow." And like the example I gave a minute ago, the guys want to spend a quarter million on paid ads. They're all about the first time customer. 

Getting that first time customer thinking that customer acquisition is the way to go. The longevity of any Ecommerce business, for me, is not necessarily about customer acquisition... I'm not saying that's a bad strategy.

I think it's perfectly legitimate and something you should do. But fundamentally, you have to build a business that is repeatable, where you get customers coming back to you and buying from you and buying from you. 

And you build such a loyal tribe of customers that they are referring you constantly to their friends, their colleagues, people that they know because this, in effect, is your most profitable traffic, your most profitable customers. 

This is how for me you build a really successful business: Don't rely just all on paid media. You have customers coming back time and time again, buying from you. 

And so what's your strategy for doing that? How do you get customers coming back and buying a second time, a third time? How do you maximize the lifetime value of your customers? 

Chase Clymer  

Oh, absolutely. That's going to be the number one thing that you need to focus on after you get all these other main systems in place. It becomes super important once you start talking about customer acquisition costs and your competition in the space. 

And if your competitor can burn more money to acquire that customer than you, that's a nightmare. There's a lot of math behind it when you start to look at it on a more holistic approach like look at the whole picture. 

So yeah, I made some notes here. There are things in your framework that are not in mine, which is fine.

Matt Edmundson  

(laughs) 

Chase Clymer  

I think one thing yours... 

Matt Edmundson  

What's missing, Chase. That's my question.

Chase Clymer  

Well, first of all, there's nothing missing. Okay. I want to go... I want to say that you're not wrong, you're right. I'm not wrong. I may be right. Who knows. But the thing is these frameworks have goals with them. 

So yours is definitely the experience as a whole. And it also is from the start of a business... It can work with any business where they're at. 

Here's the perfect example. So with your framework, the first J in JERSEY, Jam Jar really has to do with product-market fit. I just chopped that off my framework. I'm like, "If you don't have that, this won't work." 

Matt Edmundson  

(laughs)

Chase Clymer  

(laughs) So I just chopped that off. And it's not, it's not involved in mine at all. Another thing that's involved in yours that isn't in mine is everything post-purchase because our framework revolves a lot around what the agency can do for their clients. 

And our goal, and how we find success with our customers is all embedded in the experience on site. And we don't play with anything off site. So I don't really have... I have an input. 

Everything you said about that unboxing experience is amazing advice. But that's not really what our agency does. So that's not really involved in our framework at all. 

Matt Edmundson  

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clymer  

So there are some highlights there that aren't included. But then there's a lot of stuff that is absolutely included in our framework. 

So our framework is the brand scaling framework. This is the first time I think I'm talking about it on the show, but it'll be... I'm doing a course about it for Shopify, actually. 

So it'll be on Shopify Compass, and then we'll use it in all of our marketing, so everyone gets familiar with it. But it goes down to the 3 to 4 KPIs that matter in Ecommerce, in my opinion.

Matt Edmundson  

Okay.

Chase Clymer  

Obviously, this is my opinion. But it's based in fact. And these things work. We have case studies around it that show that this thought process works. 

So we position it to the numbers. So  these are the KPIs that matter. For a long time, I was going only with 3 and then recently I'm like, "I may have to rethink this and add in a fourth." 

So the 3 that I always look at are traffic, conversion rate, and average order value. The fourth that's coming in now is lifetime value. And can [I] draw parallels where this is going to go with your framework? 

Matt Edmundson  

Sure.

Chase Clymer  

Yeah. So for the first one, your conversion rate, that's going to have to do with  everything in your Engineering column. For Engineer.

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. 

Chase Clymer  

And it's gonna have to do with stuff in the Resonate column as well, that customer journey. So that's in that first block there of your conversion rate. And that's fantastic. 

And then you've got the retargeting stuff that lives in your Resonate column, and your marketing column. That to me all lives in the traffic column of my framework. 

Matt Edmundson  

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clymer  

But the one that I did notice that you... It may be in your framework, and it may just be because I didn't hear it. But the one that we put a lot of ideation on and strategy, and it's probably one of the hardest one is the average order value column in our framework. 

Matt Edmundson  

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clymer  

Coming up with upsells, cross-sells, bundling, raising the average order value of every of the purchases across the board is something that we find is pretty crucial, because that can get you out of some bad territory of scaling costs. 

But that's the only one I didn't see a direct correlation with your framework.

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah no. You're totally right, Chase. That's a metric that we'd strongly recommend [to] people. When we talk about these metrics with clients, when we go through this framework, we talk about average order value in just about all of these areas. 

Because if you've got high demand products, one of the things you need to do is to curate the upsells. 

So if I'm selling, I don't know, fountain pens, I need to figure out what ink to sell and what paper to sell. All those things on the website, that all comes from in the research. 

What can you cross sell? What can you sell? How do I increase the average order value? In engineering, so you come to your website. How do I display these products on the website in a way that connects with the right products? 

We call them related products. How do I get that to work? How is that going to make sense? If we talk about Resonance it's like, what can I do? Can I do bundles? Can I do opening videos? Can I do a blog post on why they think it is the perfect ink to go with this particular fountain pen? All of that sort of stuff. 

It is absolutely, as you say... Totally agree. Absolutely critical. The average order value and how you increase that. How do you get that up? Because you've worked hard to get that customer.

You're shipping stuff out to them. Make it easy to add another 10%-20%-30% on to that order value. And you again, you start to fly.

Chase Clymer  

Oh absolutely. Yeah. I'm sure if we wanted to take the time and put our frameworks on a whiteboard, we could just draw arrows between everything and be like "These are the same thing with different..." It's gonna be scary close. 

And here's the thing. I guarantee that I'm gonna have guests on this podcast... I'm sure you've talked to people in your life and in the consulting space that have similar methodologies behind how they're going to help a business scale. 

Matt Edmundson  

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clymer  

And you know what, a lot of these things... Half of what we're talking about here applies to any business, not just ecommerce now that I'm trying to run through quickly in my head. 

So a lot of these are really just, "This is how you grow businesses." And the frameworks that you and I have come up with are more geared towards Ecommerce.

Matt Edmundson  

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think... Like I said at the start, this is not rocket science. This is just... I needed a way to explain to customers what I thought were the 6 critical elements of running a successful Ecommerce business as I saw them in running my own Ecommerce businesses. 

[There] are 6 areas that we focus on. And it wasn't just web related. Like you say, we've gone from, from the beginning to the end. These are the 6 areas that we need to think about. Where are you working hard in these 6 areas? What's missing? What's broken? What could you do to improve in that specific area? 

And I think part of my job is --running Jersey Beauty Company, running Ecommerce businesses-- I just regularly look at the businesses, I go down this checklist, these 6 items. 

What's missing, what's not working? Where have we got stuck in that particular area? What could I do to improve it? What do I... What trends Am I seeing with our customers in those areas? And doing that, I think, it always keeps you sharp, it always keeps you on the edge of what you should be doing.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. So, before we go here, I do want to take some time to highlight that you now have a masterclass that's out. Does the masterclass teach this framework? Or what would someone learn in your Ecommerce masterclass?

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. That's exactly what we do. The masterclass is deep diving into each of these 6 segments. 

So how do I go and find high demand products? What research do I need to do? What kind of things do I need to look for in the products? What kind of products should I not sell? What kind of things do I look for in an Ecommerce platform? How do I build high conversion pages? And all that sort of stuff. 

So yeah, the 7 Pillars of Ecommerce marketing, we go through all of those in the Send section. 

We talk an awful lot about the customer experience and deep dive into that. So yeah, the whole masterclass is about 8 or 9 hours of teaching, just going into these 6 different areas.

Chase Clymer  

That's fantastic. And I'll make sure to link to that in the description of this episode. Other than that if people are picking up what you're putting down, how do they reach out? How do they get a hold of you? There you go. (laughs)

Matt Edmundson  

Yeah. No. Great. Simply just head on over to mattedmundson.com and... That's my website, mattedmundson.com and you'll find all the links to the social media. 

If social media is your thing, and you want to reach out on social media, I'm on Instagram and all those sorts of places. Just follow the links on there. [It would] be great to connect with you. [It would be] great to meet with you. And yeah, hopefully get to talk to you all soon. 

Chase Clymer  

Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Matt Edmundson  

No problem. Thanks for having me, Chase. [It's] been great.

Chase Clymer  

I cannot thank our guests enough for coming on the show and sharing their journey and knowledge with us today. We've got a lot to think about and potentially add to our businesses. Links and more information will be available in the show notes as well. 

If anything in this podcast resonated with you and your business, feel free to reach out and learn more at electriceye.io/connect. Also, make sure you subscribe and leave an amazing review. Thank you!