To say that Jordan Rolband is an e-commerce veteran is a big understatement. He was one of the first “PowerSellers” on eBay even before Paypal existed! Jordan is the President and Co-Founder of DFO Global, a performance marketing agency that uses technology to deliver measurable results for e-commerce businesses.
In this podcast, we talked to Jordan about his early success in e-commerce since 1997, the right time to buy paid media, performance-based marketing, and the importance of focusing on your core business.
In This Conversation We Discuss:
- [1:06] Jordan’s e-commerce beginnings
- [5:50] DFO Global’s story
- [8:54] When is the right time for a business to buy paid media?
- [12:53] Sponsor: https://www.simplr.ai/honest
- [13:50] You should take risks, especially in businesses
- [15:45] Shopify and DFO Global’s e-commerce solutions compared
- [19:40] Jordan’s take on ClickFunnels
- [21:46] Chase: Carthook is like ClickFunnels for Shopify
- [22:46] DFO Global’s “Individual Product Offerings”
- [24:05] Difference between performance marketing and “normal” digital marketing
- [27:18] Sponsor: Gorgias https://gorgias.grsm.io/honest
- [30:50] Commitment is one of the keys to success
- [33:07] The number one way to ruin successful businesses according to the book Good to Great
- [34:15] The importance of focus in a business
- [36:48] Jordan’s advice for online store owners and entrepreneurs
- DFO Global website: www.dfo.global
- Jordan’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordan-rolband-35044914/
- Visit https://gorgias.grsm.io/honest to get your second month free.
- Visit simplr.ai/honest to start your free seven-day trial.
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Welcome to Honest eCommerce where we're dedicated to cutting through the BS and finding actionable advice for online store owners.
I'm your host Chase Clymer and I believe running an online business does not have to be complicated or a guessing game. If you're struggling with scaling your sales electric is here to help to apply to work with us visit electriceye.io/connect to learn more. Now let's get on with the show.
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Honest Ecommerce. I'm Chase Clymer, and today I'm bringing to the show; He just shared with me a little bit in the pre-show about being one of the first people doing the thing on eBay. So this is gonna be a great conversation. Nowadays, he is the president and co-founder of DFO Global. Jordan Rolband, welcome to the show!
Hey, Chase thanks for having me. Hi to everybody listening.
Awesome. Awesome. So take me back to eBay. So were you using eBay before PayPal?
I was using eBay before PayPal. So um, I was working... You know, during high school I was working in New York City at an antique flea market on my father's business. So I was helping him out on the weekends, and I had no interest in his business whatsoever. So he was dealing in antiques, antique prints and books, and other “tchotchkes”, I would call them.
But I met a gentleman there that was selling watches. And I approached him and basically said, “Hey, I know you know, my dad, but I'm not interested in his business. I'm really interested in watches. I'm fascinated by watches. Do you have it like, you know, could you give me a job?” And he kind of laughed and he was like, “Well, what do you know about watches?” I'm like, “Nothing other than that they look really awesome.”
So he said, “Well, I'm not going to give you a job, but I'll tell you what I can do. You can work, if it's okay with your dad, you could work for me as an apprentice, you know, for the next few months.”
And basically, you know, he had a conversation with my dad, I talked to him on a Sunday night, basically agreed that I would take on this apprenticeship with this gentleman. And for the next three months, I basically worked as his apprentice.
I've worked for him on a Saturday and Sunday. You know, the days are very long and grueling. So, you know, I'd be out there somewhere around four o'clock in the morning, we'd work till six o'clock at night. I wasn't getting paid for any of this. But basically, I got an education on watches.
And after three months, he gave me a few watches. Then he said, “Hey, here's some watches. You know, I'd like you to try to sell these and whatever you make on the watches, we’ll split the profits.”
So, I took the watches. There were five of them. I took the five watches I bought them back to my buddies, you know, at home and wound up selling them all that week and I came back and said like, “Hey, I sold those five watches Do you have any more, because I have some other people looking for watches?”
Anyway, fast forward a year, I turned this into a small little business. He set me up with my own booth at the flea market. So I was running a booth there. I was also, then selling watches to friends, family, getting referrals, and had built a nice little watch business.
And one day I was at home and just, you know, kind of doing some research on the watch market and how I could expand and I came across eBay. This is I don't I think sometime around 1997.
So I did a little research on eBay and you know how to become a seller there. And, you know, I was talking to my dad that night. And I was like, “Hey, I'm gonna you know, I think I want to start selling these watches on eBay.” He was like, “Oh, that's amazing. Like, why don't we also set up a store so I could sell some of my stuff on eBay?”
So I wound up working with him, set up a store and basically within a matter of a few weeks was up and running on eBay, had thrown up a few watches and didn't really know what to expect. And I think actually what happened is I wanted to really underestimated the market because pretty much all of the product that I put up on eBay within the first few days was already gone.
So I saw that there was obviously something here. So I started listing more watches. I was taking watches from the gentleman that I was working for/working with, basically putting as many of those watches on. And then also, at this point, I had made some of my own connections.
So, I was basically just rounding up all these different watches from watch dealers in New York City to sell on eBay. The business really took off. I became one of eBay's first PowerSellers. You know, we really figured out that there was some serious money to be made on the platform there.
And this is obviously all pre-PayPal. And, you know, once PayPal was introduced into the platform, well, eBay dramatically changed. I think my business at that point had really grown. I, as a young guy, made some pretty decent money but also had different interests at that point.
And I basically let the store go. I was going to college, I had an opportunity to take a sort of a partnership or a job with a friend of mine doing something completely outside of what I was doing on eBay. And I wanted to learn some new skills.
The time I was spending basically that was rolled into something else. And well, I think that you know, that next career path, I wouldn't say it was what directly led me to where I am today, but I think indirectly it sort of laid that foundation to bring me to this point.
Absolutely. So let's talk about this point now. So fast forward, 20 something years. Now you are in 2019. This is probably going to come out the week of Black Friday if I have my math right. So what are you up to these days?
Amazing. Yeah. So as I mentioned, I'm the president and co-founder of GFO Global Performance Commerce. We're a performance marketing agency that specializes in ecommerce. The business is six and a half years old. It started with 10 people in two different offices. So one in Vancouver, Canada, and the other one here in New York City, where I'm currently based.
If I fast forward to today, we're now nine offices with about 350 employees. And we specialize in all facets of eCommerce. So, we build out the backend technology that powers ecommerce. So we have a similar platform to Shopify that basically powers the whole backend of our business that we built internally. It's sort of like Shopify meets ClickFunnels.
So it has all the functionality of a full-service CRM with an integrated funnel builder that basically allows us to make creatives for all of our different ecommerce projects, utilizing drag and drop methodologies.
We also do all of our own fulfillment. So, any of the products that we're selling, we're fulfilling for ourselves. We set up fulfillment centers in Asia, Europe, and the US. So, as the name DFO Global, we're truly a global company. We sell into somewhere between 60 and 70 different markets depending on the product.
So we've built systems and obviously we've built fulfillment centers, etc. to essentially service that business.
We also do all of our own customer service internally. And then I think really the big part of our business, which is what brought us here and really what I was doing before we started DFO, is really focused around buying and selling media.
So, we're experts in the ability to buy media at very high volumes off of all the major platforms. So I mean, obviously, over the last 10 years Facebook and Instagram, well, at least Facebook and more recently, Instagram has been a big part of our business. But we also specialize in running, you know, traffic via Google, whether it's AdWords or the Google Display Network.
And then over the last few years, we've gotten really good at buying traffic through all the different native sources, Outbrain and Taboola, specifically. But we also do a lot of direct site buying. So we're still working with some of the older properties such as Yahoo, or MSN, where we have direct relationships with them. Basically, we're doing anywhere from two to three buys per week on each one of those platforms.
Cool. That's so awesome, the growth of your business! So I'm gonna ask a really heated question at this point short because a lot of our listeners are small businesses. They're just getting started. Maybe they've got that first couple of wins under their belt. When do you think is the right time for a business to start thinking about paid media?
Well, it's a good question. I mean, for us, it's because that's where I started. That was, that was our approach from day one. Fortunately, as a business between myself and my partner, I had some success before we started this business, he had also been very successful. So the business wasn't necessarily bootstrapped.
I think at some point, we obviously had to decide in terms of growth, like what that growth strategy would look like. But I mean, we basically had enough capital to get the business up and running and take on this paid media approach.
So I'd say for anyone that has the ability to do so, I think it's, it's really critical in terms of being able to help propel growth. So, you can certainly grow a business and I have some other businesses that I'm involved in where you can utilize social media, you can utilize, any form of like non-paid media to help grow the business.
But when you're talking about eCommerce and especially when you're talking about the ability to sell a product, we're thinking right now, outside of building a brand where, essentially, when you're building out brands, it's a whole different methodology that you're using.
But if you're talking about the ability to sell products, really, it's time to market, the speed in which you can buy and sell that product, the speed in which you can fulfill that product and get that product directly to your consumers and your ability to buy media better than knows that you're competing against for similar type products on the same media platforms.
Having that paid media approach, I think, is very critical to the overall success of the products that you're trying to sell. So if you can implement those strategies, and we're not talking about a strategy where you need a ton of budget immediately. But the reality is that you need to be able to spend enough money to figure out your metrics and then really analyze that and make sure the product that you're going to sell is going to be viable, at least, in my opinion, for six to nine months.
That's all fantastic advice. I mean, I think just to kind of peel it back to one statement, like unless you're funded, do not go into debt with paid media, because it's, it takes a bit of money to figure out that path forward,
Unless you're funded to not go into debt with paid media. But I think, on the other hand, you know, for anybody that's starting up a business, I mean, you also need to be very realistic about the expectations and the strategy and what you're utilizing to start that business.
As a young man, I've been involved in a little bit about the watches. I've made everything very simple like I had to deal with this guy gave me some watches, but it wasn't as cut and dry as that. I had to make some sacrifices in order to get those watches, which really started that business.
And there's been a bunch of different businesses that I've been involved in along the way where things were tight for me and I was bootstrapped. And I had to really make some long and hard decisions on what I wanted to do to get the business up and running.
So, I while I'm certainly not the most aggressive personality when it comes to business, I also understand that if you're overly risk-averse, you know, especially being an entrepreneur, it's, it's very difficult to be successful because there are those that are willing to take those chances to really push their business to the next level.
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Absolutely. I mean if you're okay with standing still, you're not going to grow at all. Even your organic growth might start to top out when it gets to the end of what you can do. You got to take a little bit of risk in your business and then it's just kind of like your appetite of how you can kind of stomach it.
Some people can stomach it more, some people can't. Luckily, I have a business partner that balances me out because I believe everything's gonna work itself out, which is just a trait I have.
(laughs) Yeah, I've been in that situation before, where I'm like, “This is definitely going to work itself out.” And then, six months later, it's like, “Well, hasn't worked itself out yet. So what do we do from here?” (laughs)
I was a very expensive lesson.
Yeah. Well, that's the amazing thing about you know, being an entrepreneur and being in business. Those lessons, while they're expensive and assuming you take away the right information from those lessons, they're also highly valuable.
I look at them and they're actually more valuable than even making money in some of these businesses. Because I look at what I could have potentially earned with the, with the business that I was starting and I'm like, “Wow. Yeah. This would have been an okay business. I could’ve made some money here.”
But on the other hand, maybe I made some decisions that weren't necessarily the right decision for the business. But I learned and was able to essentially, take those decisions and channel them in a different direction in a different business that I started, which became highly successful because of the behind the scenes moves that I was making. And a lot of that's from the lessons that I learned in some of these smaller businesses. Information is obviously truly valuable.
Yeah, you can't put a price on it. So just trying to kind of pivot a little bit here. We're huge fans of Shopify on this show. I am, personally and I believe a lot of our audience probably has a Shopify store. So let's do a quick compare and contrast between the Shopify platform and like an end to end solution like what you guys offer just to show to the people like what else is out there?
Sure. Well, I will say with Shopify, I know a lot of their team personally, over the years. Having been in ecommerce and the lead gen business and really all forms of media.I've made some relationships with people that work at Shopify. I've been to their headquarters in Ottawa. They've built an amazing business. So let me just start by saying that they've built an amazing business.
Where I think we differ is where Shopify basically made a sort of a plug and play model for really anybody that wants to be an eCommerce, we've basically built systems for those that are a little more experienced.
Focusing on individuals or groups that maybe are going from running a small ecommerce business to like a mid-tier ecommerce business. A lot of that's based on revenue but also based on the size of your team and also the skill sets that you possess internally.
When we started building our software six and a half years ago, we built it out with three main and y key factors. The first one was speed. I know that today, the way that our systems were built/our pages, our back end will essentially outperform any other systems out there.
In terms of like load speeds, the way in which users can interact with the pages, etc. So that was sort of the first thing that we really spent a lot of time focusing on is, “How can we create a product that will essentially allow our load speeds to beat any of those that are the market?” And I think we did a really good job of accomplishing that.
The second was that as a business, we really focused a lot of our time and effort in selling products outside of the US. Obviously the US is an amazing, amazing market for ecommerce. There are billions of people that are living outside of the US that we wanted to have the ability to self-sell for a number of different reasons.
The most obvious one being that when the US is overcrowded and highly competitive, there are other countries that you may find lower price points on media. For example, we also use strategies where we're utilizing influencers. And, I found over the years that we could find and build relationships with a lot of influencers outside of the US at either a much lower cost or in some instances where they're basically just willing to work with us for free because they want to build up their, you know, their, their reputation. It's worked out really well for us.
So we built the systems out, keeping that in mind, that everything we were doing was going to basically run outside of the US. From the way that Customer Service works to the way that our fulfillment centers integrate into our systems, we built a completely different approach than what Shopify was doing.
And then, I think, the third one was really looking at Shopify and what ClickFunnels was doing and saying to ourselves, like, “Here are two very different products they solve probably some of the most important problems that individuals in the ecommerce space would really face when they're building out their, their product offerings. Why don't we bring, you know, the best of each of those worlds together and building within one system?
Absolutely. I'm a big fan of Russell here. I've definitely recommended DotComSecrets before. If you are unfamiliar with ClickFunnels, it's a nice software. I feel his software specifically targeted more towards consulting. I don't know if you'd agree with that or not. But I would love to explore that a bit more with you?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, ClickFunnels is basically built on the backbone of selling information. So, if you look at Shopify, I mean Shopify was clearly built with the purpose of being able to bring in any, you know, any entrepreneur, small business, etc, and allow them to, within a few clicks, to have an eCommerce store up and running.
ClickFunnels was really built on the opposite spectrum of where Shopify was living. Basically saying, if you're in the information business, here's a tool that you can utilize to launch your info products. How they differ, I mean, Shopify is a more complete solution whereas ClickFunnels and what I love about ClickFunnels, and what I found really interesting about what they built early on is the drag and drop functionality.
Basically, you can have an optimized site up within a day. Basically, within that site, because of the drag and drop functionality, you can make all of your changes. You can make language changes, you can make design changes, you can make other optimization checkouts on the checkout pages, within a matter of a few minutes, which makes everything very easy.
And what I think they started to do, where they really focused a lot of their efforts initially, in the information space, they obviously saw the success that Shopify was happening, and they started to hear a lot of the next stage of their product development, focusing around ecommerce.
Yeah, there's definitely a pretty similar application out there in the Shopify ecosystem. CartHook is a Shopify plugin that mimics some of the stuff that DotCom Secrets.. --not DotCom Secrets. Sorry, that's the book-- that ClickFunnels does in the kind of the methodologies behind it. It really makes sense if you've got like a more specific product line. Say for like a clothing brand, it doesn't make a lot of sense. But if you've got like one particular product and then another one that's very similar, that makes a lot more sense.
Yeah, Chase, I mean, well said on that. I will take a step back then, and even say that’s the case with our business. So, really, for us, where we found success essentially, building out individual product offerings. We call them we call them funnels. ClickFunnels obviously had a similar concept in the way in which that they were looking at these products that they were building out.
Basically, each product that we sell is built into a simple website or a funnel, if I may. We're basically pushing consumers to those funnels by utilizing certain tactics on Facebook or Instagram or Google, etc. And we're really focusing on that one hero product.
So we're not pushing them to it an ecommerce storefront, or basically just pushing them to a page. That whole page is built and designed around to get them to purchase that one product. And then once they've purchased that product, we basically have a sales flow or what we now call a funnel, where we're then selling them similar type products.
We're basically looking for a certain percentage of people to take what we would call like the step two within the funnel; the second offer that we're presenting them. Then obviously, there's a third offer that we present them. We're basically looking at percentages. Which, assuming we had our metrics based on the way that we're optimizing our pages, allow us to make money on that first touch sale.
Absolutely. So I guess this is a great time to bring up like, what is the difference between performance marketing, and just like, “I'm running Google ads”?
For performance marketers, my background has always been in, what we call like cost per acquisition.CPA marketing. Basically, what it means is that if you're working with us as a client because we also do work with certain groups where we take on clients. If you're working with us, we do everything based on an acquisition cost.
For instance, if you're working with an agency, typically the way agencies work is on a cost-plus model. So they basically say, “Hey, we're planning to spend, you know, $50,000 on Facebook this month. For that $50,000 in spending, we're going to deliver X, Y, and Z. Based on that, we collect a certain percentage of that spend that we essentially do on your behalf.
But there's no guarantee beyond that if they can actually deliver. And it's not a bad model at all. But there's, there's no delivery guarantee. Whereas on a performance-based, we only make money if we deliver. So, you know, we don't discuss what the overall budget is or where we can have a conversation about the budget. But our goal isn't to spend $50,000 of our clients' money. Our goal is to say, “Here's your back end profitability. Here's what our metrics look like. We know that you're working on the desired margin, and therefore, let's come up with a cost per acquisition that works for all of us. And our goal then is to work to achieve that cost per acquisition. And if we do so, any of the money that's made in between the agreed CPA and what we're paying for on the media side basically becomes our margin.”
So if we do a really good job at buying that media, we could obviously be highly profitable. If we're not doing such a good job and maybe we're still running the product offering, but we're running it at a lower margin. And if we're not successful at all, then basically we're losing money. It's our job to then go back and optimize, but our clients are actually having to cover those losses for us.
Whereas with an agency, an agency can come back to and basically say, “Hey we spent the $50,000 budget, we got your20 sales. So now your acquisition cost is x. Based on backend metrics, you probably weren't profitable, but we still need to be paid our fee anyway because that's how the contract reads right now. It's what we agreed to.”
So this model basically says we're going to take all of the risks on buying the media. Of we're not successful, you don't lose any money. However, if we are highly successful, we get to participate by potentially making more in terms of the margin. That spread of what the media is costing us versus what you're paying.
Let's be honest, today, all of your customers are going to have questions and what are you doing to manage all those questions? Do you have a help desk for your business?
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Absolutely. And so I know if I'm sitting here as a small business owner like, “This sounds great. I don't have to pay and everything's good.” I want to point out two things. One of them is something I know. And then one of them, I'm assuming. So we'll see if I'm right. So one, the client is still paying for the media spend?
Well, yes, and no. They're paying in the sense that every time we drive a sale, they're paying us for that sale. But they're not paying unless we actually deliver for them. So if there are no sales generated, they're not paying. We as a company, we cover the spend ourselves.
Okay. And then my next question is, you probably have a particular type of client. I'm assuming they're well into their business lifecycle. They've got a very good product-market fit. I'm assuming you're not taking on everybody.
It's interesting. If I look at my career, --I've been doing CPA marketing now, for the last 14 years--, I've worked with so many different clients. And if I look back, at the third party clients that I've worked with over the years, there's there are two groups in particular that I can think of that have been highly successful. And both of them were groups that I basically started with.
They had some experience with building out offerings online but basically had never run under the CPA model. Both businesses were bootstrapped. But both of them, to date, has been my most successful clients. And I think a lot of that's because of the way in which we work together, we formed a really good relationship. They looked at me as sort of a partner in their business and vice versa in the very early stages when we started working together.
While they both were living in California, I'm here in New York. They came to visit me a few times I went out to visit them, I really understood their business. They understood what I needed, what my team needed to be successful. Because I think we work together so well, You know, the businesses were both able to grow and scale way beyond probably what either of us thought we could do together.
And I've had some clients on the opposite spectrum of that I've had some clients who have tons of experience in marketing, maybe not necessarily CPA marketing, but in marketing. They've come to the table with capital, they've had some great product ideas, but for whatever reason, we just weren't able to execute at a high level. I think a lot of that comes down to commitment. Putting the time and effort and energy into really building your business.
Now, think for a lot of younger entrepreneurs, and young, I mean, not necessarily an age, but just people that are starting out, at least in the ones that have struggles in terms of being successful, I feel that they're always missing some part of their business. You know, whether it's the dedication or the diligence. By that, I mean I've dealt with groups who have a job, and then they also want to be an entrepreneur and they want to start building things. but they're not necessarily willing to go all in, to back themselves.
I found that working with those types of groups, at least in my experience, has always been difficult. But if it's somebody that's willing to go in business, we can typically work with them. Even with the product ideas and offerings, etc. like if we need to make changes. As long as everybody's willing to sort of follow that same roadmap to being successful it usually will work itself out anyway.
Absolutely. I like how you are being honest saying, you know, it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. I appreciate the honesty.
Yeah I mean, that's kind of the truth of it. Right? I've seen a lot of different people over the years, become highly successful by jumping right in and just sort of going. Yeah, I've seen lots haven't been.
As I said, I think my two biggest clients over the years are, if I look at in terms of just revenue, what we've done together are probably, those two groups that I've worked with from years back, once they found some success, they basically just stuck to a sort of blueprint that they've built with the first offering and said, “We're going to continue to build things that are very similar to what we've done in the past. And while the market is evolving, it will continue to evolve with it. We know what works for us. And we will try to deviate from what's been successful.”
Yeah. Okay. So, I want to highlight that real quick because that is like a key topic to that book Good to Great. I don't know if you've ever read that.
Yep. Yeah, of course. Yeah.
So you start a successful business and then the number one way people ruin successful businesses is by starting other businesses or buying other businesses that aren't similar.
Yes. I can tell you from personal experience.
Yeah, the systems are all completely different. You have to learn something. The learning curve is off. That's the number one reason that ruins good businesses is like they start acquiring, all sorts of crazy stuff.
And I think one of the examples in the book was, it was like, RJ Reynolds or something, they were buying a tobacco company. A sin product, as you will. But then they bought something that was completely out of there. It was like cereal or something. They bought Nestle, something like that.
And then they sold it for a loss a couple years later because they realized, they didn't understand that at all. They knew sin products. They knew how to market that. I think they kept chocolate because it was close enough, but like they had to get rid of all this other stuff because it was so different.
Chase, as an entrepreneur, --and I feel like I've been an entrepreneur my whole life-- I can tell you that when I'm very focused on a business, and that's all I think about, the business is generally very successful.
But when, and we all are at some point, become guilty of sign shiny object syndrome, when that kicks in, and you start looking at all these different opportunities that come your way. I think, the more successful you become, the more opportunities that just come your way.
And once you start trying to take on too many new things, and you're going down all these different paths, not only do those businesses suffer but the reality is, that your core business also suffers. Unless you have groups of people that are going to come in and can run these businesses for you, it's very hard to start managing all these different businesses at a high level.
The reality is, is to be successful, you need to be totally into the business. It's happened to me so many different times. Even in the last six and a half years with DFO, we've tried to diversify into different businesses at times. Basically, what happens is we wind up failing and coming back to our core business, and then spending more time on what our core business is and optimizing around that and that's where we always find the most success.
So you know, what I'll do with these other opportunities is either pass on them, or I try to find other partners, that we could potentially do something with, that can take these opportunities on and really run them for us where we're then just a small piece of the business. So, this way we don't have to be focusing tons of attention on these new businesses. We can stay all in on our business, and then let those other groups of people focus on the new business at hand.
Right. And I think that so far, doing that over the last few years, that model has worked out way better for us for a number of different reasons. And I think it's really also allowed us to stay focused on what we're doing as DFO, and really where we want to go over the next two years, three years, five years, etc.
Absolutely. So before we go here, I just want to thank you for coming on the show. We had a lot of fun conversations. Before we sign off here, is there anything that we haven't discussed that you think would be worthwhile for our audience?
Well, yeah, we touched on some really interesting points. What I say is, you had mentioned that you had a lot of entrepreneurs that are here and they're getting into ecommerce or in ecommerce and utilizing Shopify. What I've learned about ecommerce over the years is that, there's going to be a lot of ups and downs and that things are changing, and they're constantly changing, and they're evolving very quickly.
I think what I just would want to say is that, if you believe in your business, and you really believe in what you're doing, and you're putting the work in, and you have a great product or great concepts for products, don't get frustrated with what's happening in a market.
Especially right now because, Facebook over the last year or so, and I know a lot of people are buying traffic on Facebook, Facebook has been extremely difficult to work with for a number of different reasons. Some of its could potentially be some of our business models, other reasons are because Facebook is just under a ton of scrutiny right now, and they're making a lot of changes, and therefore, they've hired lots of new people who are just not familiar with the processes and procedures of Facebook itself. And I can see a lot of mistakes being made across the platform.
I think at some point, this will all regularize itself. And you just have to be patient. Because I feel, and I hear a lot of people right now that are quite frustrated, and almost throwing their hands up in the air, like, “Hey, I've built this business and you know, now I'm having some issues with Facebook, I don't know what to do.” So I'd say one is, Facebook is still constantly growing in terms of the people that are using the platform, or I'd say Facebook and Instagram, and their different product offerings. The traffic is certainly there
So, I'd say just outside of that, make sure that you are diversified. If your strategy has been heavily relying on Facebook to get traffic, diversify outside of that traffic.
I've talked about Google. I can tell you that for us as a business, Google has been a great source of traffic for us. The native platforms, Taboola and Outbrain have also been highly successful for us.
Also, if you're selling certain types of products, especially like niche products, don't be afraid to reach out to direct sites and work deals with them. Because believe me, just as we're all looking to figure out different ways to find traffic and to monetize what we're doing, a lot of these sites are doing the same thing and they're basically just sitting around, waiting for the right opportunity to come to them for a product that may really resonate well with their audience.
Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Yeah, thanks, man. Thanks for having me.
I cannot thank our guests enough for coming on the show and sharing their journey and knowledge with us today. We've got a lot to think about and potentially add to our businesses. Links and more information will be available in the show notes as well.
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