On this episode of Honest Ecommerce, we have Nicholas Hernandez. Nick is the director of ecommerce at The Felina Group, where he is currently leading the 40 year old company into the DTC space. We talk about making choices and failing fast, building brand value beyond price, navigating internal KPI complexities, and so much more!
Just two weeks after graduating from high school, Nicholas plunged into the vibrant world of television, initiating a career that would meander through the exhilarating realms of entertainment and entrepreneurship.
After 7 years in “the business” the transition into married life marked a significant turning point, prompting Nick to navigate towards the startup ecosystem in search of a more balanced schedule. As the third hire at an emerging startup, he was instrumental in expanding the company to a powerhouse of 40 dedicated employees, steering it towards remarkable growth and success.
Nick's professional narrative is highlighted by his key role in establishing major partnerships with entertainment juggernauts such as Disney, Paramount, and CBS. Through his expertise in negotiation, innovative merchandising, and strategic market introductions, Nick masterfully brought extensive collections to the forefront of the industry.
Currently, Nick is channeling his profound experience in startups to aid The Felina Group in its quest to dominate the direct-to-consumer (DTC) sector. His mission is to fortify customer relationships and spearhead the established B2B company's dive into new, uncharted waters, promising groundbreaking opportunities and growth.
When he's not revolutionizing business strategies or leading his team to new heights, Nick cherishes driving through the serene Malibu canyons or sharing the magic of Disneyland with his daughter, finding balance and joy in these precious moments away from the hustle and bustle of work.
In This Conversation We Discuss:
Resources:
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Nicholas Hernandez
If you can raise their perceived value so that they see alignment at a higher price point, they will purchase it at a higher price point.
Chase Clymer
Welcome to Honest Ecommerce, a podcast dedicated to cutting through the BS and finding actionable advice for online store owners. I'm your host, Chase Clymer. And I believe running a direct-to-consumer brand does not have to be complicated or a guessing game.
On this podcast, we interview founders and experts who are putting in the work and creating real results.
I also share my own insights from running our top Shopify consultancy, Electric Eye. We cut the fluff in favor of facts to help you grow your Ecommerce business.
Let's get on with the show.
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Honest Ecommerce.
Today, I'm welcomed to the show by Nicholas Hernandez. He is the Director of Ecommerce at The Felina Group. Welcome to the show.
Nicholas Hernandez
Thanks for having me, Chase.
Chase Clymer
I'm excited to chat. So first and foremost, what is the Felina Group? What are the types of products you guys are bringing to market over there?
Nicholas Hernandez
Yeah. So Felina Group mainly or historically, I'll say, has manufactured women's intimates and some light apparel. In the last couple years, apparel, athleisure, and then even expanding into men's has been a higher priority. So that's slowly starting to trickle into the line.
But the company's been around for about 40 years. And if you look back at most of that history, it was women's intimates and apparel.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely. 40 years old. So that predates the Internet. So this is what I would say is a legacy brand, for lack of a better term.
When did they start pivoting in taking direct consumer and ecom seriously?
Nicholas Hernandez
So that started... It predates my time at the company. But it started around 5 years ago where they just said, “Hey, why don't we just... Why don't we throw up a website? And we'll just put some of our products there?” No real strategy to it. It was more just… we're seeing people buying more and more things online. Maybe we should be participating.
Because they still have and have had very strong wholesale business. So it wasn't necessarily that they were looking at Ecommerce to say, let's add this on, and maybe we do something else with our wholesale. The wholesale is still happening. It's just somebody saw the writing on the wall.
And luckily for me, they decided to start investing into that. So about 5 years, but I'd say in the last 2, it's been getting very serious.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely. Yeah. So the business was built through more traditional wholesale channels and relationships and then in the last 5 years, so just a couple years before the boom of the pandemic, they started to dip their toes in here.
No, you said through their own website, but are they also trying Amazon and other marketplaces or is it all... So yeah.
Nicholas Hernandez
I do have somebody on our team that just handles third-party marketplaces. And when I say ecom or dot com, internally, that's blended between our website, Amazon, dropship on Target, dropship on Walmart, drop ship on Macy's, drop ship on Nordstrom.
I think that's it. I might be missing one, but it's kind of a matrix because on a lot of those drop ships, we're also on the wholesale, so they kind of support one another.
And we have enough of a product, a robust product catalog that with some intentionality, we don't cannibalize our own sales online, which was one of the biggest things, when I first came in, seeing that there was a strong Amazon business was, “Okay, well, let's see how that lives alongside the dot com.”
Because in companies past, you had to pick a lane or you had to be okay with a little bit of cannibalization unless you're drawing very clear lines in the sand, which they have.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely. And I want to get into that a little bit later on. And I hope I remember.
But let's just talk about you. Let's talk about your history in the industry and how you ended up at The Felina Group.
Nicholas Hernandez
Yeah. So rewind back to 2008, 2009, I was working in television right out of high school, which is not a very traditional career path. But my grandfather had an auto shop, one of his clients was a producer for low budget films. And he said, “Hey, you hire people right? on TV?”
And I got to be a PA on a low budget movie right out of high school, and then very quickly, I moved into the reality space. So I was doing Top Chef. I was doing game shows. I was then moved over into kids television, production coordinating on Nickelodeon and Disney and eventually being up to being assistant directing.
And it was a great time, but the hours were awful. And then after getting married, I was like, “I can't do this anymore.”
So I started to see where I could take that skill set and kind of move it over into a more traditional setting. And I landed at a, like a startup cosmetic company, essentially coordinating their media in the same way that I was kind of coordinating on TV, but it was very low stakes compared to that space in TV.
And because it was a high growth startup, not only did we have the need for, but it was the right environment for people to raise their hand and say, “We need somebody doing this now or this opportunity came up, we cannot expand headcount. Who can figure that out enough to be able to do it because we need to leverage this opportunity?”
And in that space, I learned that I had the knack for product development, for contract negotiation, for licensing, for supply chain. It was an amazing opportunity to be able to try my hand at a lot of things out of sheer necessity of being in the right kind of startup at the right time. So that's where I really cut my teeth on a lot of these more niche parts of Ecommerce and supply chain and got to work with some amazing partners.
That company, around seven years in, decided to transition itself for an acquisition. As it did, it kind of wound down some of the development they were doing, they restructured the team. And it was just, I didn't want to be part of that new regime. so it was time to see what else was out there.
And then after a little bit of consulting a little bit here and there, I said, “You know what, I want to kind of land at a place that's doing something similar to what I was doing before, where they're trying new things out.”
We were in the high growth space. Felina was a very interesting kind of opportunity because in one sense, it's a very old company, but the Ecommerce bubble within that is almost identical to where I was almost 10 years ago.
It was, like, very new. Everything is a “yes, and?”, any kind of opportunity it's, “Yeah. How do we take action on it? Let's figure it out. Let's do it”, and I get that flexibility and that opportunity very similar to one, you know, we were figuring it out for the first time.
Luckily now I am underpinned by a larger organization. So it's not like it was before where if you want to try a new thing, what other thing are you taking away? Because there's only money for one thing.
In a nutshell, that's how I got to where I am now.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely. I think that there's a few things that you said that I wanted to comment on.
The first being from Felina's perspective, hiring you, someone that's done it before versus just giving the role to anybody else is like the smartest move that they could make.
I always feel like with hiring, you can't afford to hire someone to figure it out. Rarely does that work out. When it does is when you hear about it. But that's also just kind of like a fallacy of success.
It's very... I always tell entrepreneurs, anybody out there, “Hire the most expensive person you can afford”, which is like a goofy statement but it just means you can't train someone how to do something when your team is smaller than 10. It doesn't matter. You're hiring them to take stuff off your plate, not for you to teach them to do the thing that you hired them to do.
Nicholas Hernandez
Yeah. I would definitely say the stories of my background are more the anomaly where it was the right place at the right time. They could not afford somebody and I just happened to be the type of person that would say yes and figure it out and get it done.
And it was a great mutual opportunity for both of us, but it's definitely not the standard operating procedure where you say, “Hire somebody that doesn't know it and hopefully it works out.”
Chase Clymer
Not to downplay your successes by any means, Nicholas, but I meant more that like I would say that the roadmap to impact that you're doing at Felina is probably a lot faster than what you were figuring out beforehand.
Nicholas Hernandez
Yeah, no. There was definitely... I had the luxury of growing with the company in the past. So at the scale that they needed me is where I was able to come in and operate at and treat it as a learning experience, but also as something that the company needed done.
But I will say that I think my time–and this is just personally for me–my time on television and going through the insanity that is the world of TV really gives you a thick skin and prepares you for startups in a weird way.
So coming out of TV into this space where there was just tons of pressure…It's like I came from a world where pressure meant figuring something out in a matter of hours. And you have a half hour to figure it out. You have an hour or we lose half a million dollars because that's the day that we don't make. We need to do this in a week. We need to do this in a month.
And with those timeframes, I was like, “Oh, yeah, this is fine. I got this.” So it definitely... I would say mentally, it got me on the right foot.
Chase Clymer
Yeah. No, that's amazing.
It's so true that just like making choices, failing fast, learning from mistakes. That's startup 101. But when you're in an environment where the deadline isn't moving, regardless of any external factors, you get creative and you figure out how to solve things.
Nicholas Hernandez
Yeah. That definitely came up. It's one thing when you have an on-shop date with partners. It's another thing when you have more complex collections with, like, licensors when you're working with something like Disney or something like that, which we had before where there is an on-shelf date, it is not moving. The answer is yes or yes, and you need to figure it out.
But definitely a little bit more, I won't say luxurious in air quotes compared to TV.
Chase Clymer
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Chase Clymer
When you were hired, what were some of the initial bullet points that you guys are looking to execute on in your first 90 days, 6 months, year?
Nicholas Hernandez
So first up for me was taking stock of what had previously been done. And the previous team… I wouldn't say came into the tech stack and to the overall ecommerce funnel with an architecture mindset.
I think the buzzword at Shop Talk this couple months ago was “composable commerce”. That was not the mindset coming in. So you looked at the stack and there was a lot of stuff that essentially did the same thing. So we were double paying, there was stuff that was plugged in for one small solution without consideration for the larger weight on the tech stack.
We were in the midst of an initiative, I came in mid initiative, on refreshing the website. So that it all kind of landed at the same time.
But really, within the first 30 days, I was evaluating the entirety of the tech stock and seeing what we were going to consolidate or what we were going to just straight up cut because there was stuff that was sitting, not only on the stack, but more importantly on our P&L that nobody knew what we were paying it for. Nobody remembered the solution. And people were like, “I think somebody set that up. I think at some point…” But we were still paying for it.
Coming in with some Ecomm direct to consumer fundamentals from a very lean kind of background to say we could be saving X amount just right off the top with absolutely no growth because we're just a little bit too inflated on what our stack looks like.
And then after that, it moved to kind of working on each individual part of the funnel and opting in seeing what needed the most work. But I would say, right off the bat, I was like, “Where can I make an impact immediately?” And cutting costs on things that we genuinely did not need was, to me, that was an easy win.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely. I mean, there's a book and I don't think I've talked about it on the show before because I don't want to get hit with one of these from a vendor side of things. But it's called Double Your Profits by Bob Pfeiffer. Okay. And it's 50 pages, 75 pages.
This guy was ruthless with expense cutting. And one of my key takeaways there, he was just like, “Obviously, if you're not reviewing your expenses every quarter, maybe even every month, start doing that.”
But someone was like, “What are we even paying for here?” And he said, he's like, “Just stop paying for stuff and see if anyone complains.” It was, like, one of the strategies. It's like, some of these things just don't need to happen. There were so many good ideas there, but then there were some funnier things like that. He's like, “Just stop paying for it and see if someone complains. You'll never know. Half the time, it just works itself out.”
Nicholas Hernandez
Did he work at McKinsey?
Chase Clymer
Probably. It's definitely written in that regard. But it's a fun little read. And there are some good takeaways and then some more ruthless takeaways that I probably would never do. But that was a fun little book that I read. And you reminded me of that.
Nicholas Hernandez
It's funny. We did something very similar.
One of the things, first cleaning up and not so much consumer facing, but just internally to the department, we had issued, kind of without, again, a structure in mind, a lot of credit cards for the department to bill different types of solutions. And that was one of the things I was like, “Okay, we need to consolidate this because the accounting is coming asking for receipts. And I have like two charges for one thing over here, I have our meta spend landing on this other card, I have three tools I don't know about on this other one.”
And for some of them, we genuinely were able to say, “Okay, I don't think we're using this. I don't see it anywhere. This is probably an old thing. I'm going to just cancel that card.” And when the auto payment doesn't run through, they will reach out to us. And then I will have a very clear picture of what was getting paid for what.
And it was honestly, when you're looking at doing something just in the interest of time, I could spend, you know, probably two days diving through archive emails from the previous team trying to find the solution.
Or I could just cancel the card and that $50 a month charge will manifest itself at the top of my inbox because they will say, “Hey, your card didn't run. Didn't go through.”
Chase Clymer
Absolutely. All right. So after being a ruthless cost cutter.
Nicholas Hernandez
Yeah. So I started. After that, we looked at the entirety of the funnel and we found that the bottom of funnel retention was in okay shape. So it didn't need that much help.
Middle of the funnel was already in progress. The new website was contributing a lot to that and there was a lot of cleanup happening with the refresh as well. The middle to top of the funnel was the weak link.
Chase Clymer
Can I ask how you identified that a little deeper?
Nicholas Hernandez
Oh, yeah.
Chase Clymer
Especially at the bottom retention being good. How did you know if something was good versus bad, I guess? Which is a very, I know, very specific question.
Nicholas Hernandez
Yeah. No, definitely subjective. Really just looking at our internal KPIs, which is, on top of the normal kind of, you know, what is our return? What is the retention rate, repeat purchase rate, things of that nature.
On advertising, we also look at the total associated... Oh, gosh. I always... We call it tacos and you just say it so much that it loses its meaning. You just say that word too much. So I try to preface it with the... It's the total associated cost of advertising? No, that's not right.
It's something to that end. But it's basically like an efficiency metric, like, total spend compared to the revenue. So we also look at that efficiency metric as well internally.
But the bottom of the funnel, email, SMS, anything in the retention space was converting very well. We had really, really strong numbers on email. Every email we sent out was consistently delivering revenue.
When you looked at our on-site metrics and kind of overlaid when we sent out promotions to existing customers. We had a 30% to 40% open rate and about half of our customer base every single week would action on an email.
So I had this interesting phenomenon zooming out a little bit that every month we had about 50% new customers coming in through wholesale channels, that they'd buy it at a wholesale location like a Costco or something, they'd go, “Oh, look at this brand!” And then they'd land on the site and then post-purchase surveys helped us kind of figure that out.
But every month I had about 50% of the people coming in new. And then 50% of those people turned into a 28 to 32 day repurchase customer. Never the same item, but they were essentially coming back to me about every single month, almost like clockwork, actioning on one of four or five emails that we sent out to our highly engaged base.
And that to me was, “Okay, this kind of retention is probably going to need some optimization, but it's not broken.”
And it's consistently delivering revenue. And it’s comparatively, when you look at it like a ROAs compared to what our top of funnel prospecting or even retargeting campaigns were doing, I mean, obviously the retention is gonna be a lot better, but even waiting for it so that it was almost like an apples to apples and looking to see what's driving revenue.
Paid media was underperforming by and large and our retention coming through offline channels was very strong. So that's like almost middle, but the bottom of the funnel was a really, really strong driver. But the moment you had new traffic onto our site, there were a lot of hurdles that we put in the way of the customer.
Not so much anymore. We worked on that. But the website load speed, the wayfinding from the homepage plan to the final PDP, when we installed a heat mapping tool so that we could start seeing where sessions were falling off.
It kind of felt like that and the top of the funnel became kind of the areas that we were focusing on because it wasn't like we were sending out an email and, you know, nobody acted on it.
The emails were, again, consistently hitting. SMS messages were consistently hitting and driving measurable, repeatable, bankable kinds of revenue. While paid media was more of a roller coaster, it was like really, really good, or really, really bad, or just kind of flatlining. It was kind of all over the place.
I think the reasoning for moving to Ecommerce in general was to own more of that customer relationship. I didn't want to rely on any piece of that funnel coming from those wholesalers as amazing as that traffic is, I don't own that.
So they could decide to move our end cap to the back of the store. And all of a sudden, my metrics go all wonky because I was counting on this kind of mystery piece.
So that became our error, kind of still is our next area of focus. We got our paid media. We have an agent, we have two different agencies that we're working with for anything on Google and paid search and then anything on Meta. And we’re also contacting them to do some UGC because we don't have the bandwidth internally.
But our biggest blind spot and our biggest, new initiative right now is that organic push and getting organic sessions into our funnel. Because as we've been kind of working our way up the funnel, we have so many things that optimize traffic. I have pop-ups. I have retargeting initiatives. You have the slew of levers that you can pull when you get traffic in.
And then not just on our dot com, on Amazon as well, because we'd spend a good amount advertising within Amazon to help that end of the business as well. They need sessions. I could set a daily spend cap that's triple. But if I don't get the sessions to come in, I can't force the spend on some of those. I need the session.
That's kind of been our next move as we move up the funnel. I need more eyeballs coming in so that all the levers get pulled and all the initiatives and things that we have in place have more throughput so that they can work more efficiently.
And another way I kind of try to sell it to the non-technical members of our team is that it's kind of like it's the rising tide. Organic sessions are the rising tide that lifts all boats. Organic sessions help offset the amount of sessions that paid media needs to be bringing in to make our numbers. It doesn't have to stretch as far. So it works more efficiently.
So then like those like tacos numbers, associated costs of advertising for sales get more efficient, everything looks better when I have organic coming in to also like work in harmony with paid because the previous team has really pushed this concept of pay to play and don't worry about that top of funnel. We can spend, spend, spend.
And while you can do a certain degree, it's like the chart going into infinity, where as you spend more to get more customers, you're going to the edge. You're saturating your customer base. So you're having to go to the fringes of that base. And then you have to double your spend to get 1% more and then double again.
Chase Clymer
Yeah. There's diminishing returns.
Nicholas Hernandez
Yes. You hit a level of diminishing returns where you're not efficiently deploying that capital. And if you could get in organic sessions to help get those numbers up, then paid media needs to represent a smaller portion. So it operates much more efficiently.
And that's been our next big unlock. Soon to be unlocked is getting those top of funnel sessions consistently and measurably coming in, in the same way that we can look at the bottom of the funnel and just not have to worry about it because we know that our people show up.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely.
I think that the first thing I really want to highlight here is... You glossed over it, but the post-purchase survey told you what was broken, quote, unquote, on your website, right? It helped you clearly identify.
And I think that a lot of merchants are flying blind to where they're actually getting customers from. They're using attribution that likes to over attribute. And obviously, there are amazing tools out there that help you understand attribution as it's coming in, but you can also just ask as it's coming out and get a more realistic idea.
Because wholesale doesn't... That whole wholesale thing, there's no way to track that with a pixel. You would only know from a survey.
Nicholas Hernandez
Yeah, it's like a black box. And I think sometimes people maybe underestimate what they can just ask their customers.
Chase Clymer
Oh my god. I talked to dozens of merchants a week and I'm like, “Hey, when's the last time you ran a customer survey?” And they're like, “Oh, 2004?”
Nicholas Hernandez
They're like, “They're not gonna answer.” “Nobody's gonna answer.” They're like, if they're engaged, they will answer. Post-purchase is the easiest one because they're right there. We make it very easy. It's like one button: Did you hear about us from Facebook, from Google, from Costco, from the half a dozen other retailers? And it's one button for us.
And yeah, really, that plus the heat mapping to show where sessions were falling off, I think were the first two pieces of, I will say, data that was really interesting to non-Ecomm people. Because we are, I will say, we are like the agents of change within that company. We're coming in with all the new ideas and concepts and the wholesale business at large.
Chase Clymer
But I think you're definitely set up for success because there is, definitely... You have a superior product that definitely drives that retention element too. It's like, wow, this is a fantastic product. And that's why people are coming back from buying it in a big box store to finding the website. And then buying something online. Everything's easier if you have a good product.
Nicholas Hernandez
And I will say that was one of the first things when I came in and I started getting a lay of the land. Inevitably, from my past in product development, I'm like, “Okay, what are we selling? Let me look at it. What are we doing?” And I really quickly realized, “Oh, we over manufacture this and don't know how to sell it to the customer. And unfortunately, we're kind of locked in now on where our pricing kind of sits.”
But they overproduce it. Our dev cycles are like 11 months. They put way too much effort into the product.
The materials are phenomenal and should be honestly selling for three times the cost. But they really broke it to, “I don't know how to tell that to the customer quickly and succinctly. So I have to trade on competitive pricing because I cannot trade on the value or transform the value from a look and feel and touch into something that you can do through the Internet.”
But it meant that I could lean on the quality of the product and it wasn't a kind of, “Oh, people got wise to our act, let's move to the next town" kind of thing. It was a good product that I could really lean on to your point with that retention piece.
When people try the product, and if I can get them even on something on dot com that piqued their interest, there's a 50% chance they are now coming back every single month because they felt like they found a hidden gem because the quality is phenomenal and the price is really, really good.
One of my long-term initiatives is to try to really build this as a real brand that trades on other values outside of price because price is not defendable. It’s a race to the bottom if we start kind of trading on price only, but it's the easiest lever to pull, which is usually why people pull it.
It's a lot harder to really say, “Okay, well, let's get into the psychology of our core customer basis.” Like, “What do they value? How do we start testing out different value props to see what's moving the needle?”, Especially because they've been so value driven in the past. There is a heavy emphasis on promotions to move the needle.
So it's also kind of, in the short term, scary to say, “Okay, well, maybe we pull back on promos and we start trying to test out other value props to see what's engaging customers.”
And those are kind of… The cost of learning that a value prop is not engaging customers is having a poor sales period, which historically, they said, “Well, if I put it in X amount off, I know people show up.”
And that's been another kind of interesting one to see. Well, they show up because they see an alignment between the perceived value of the product and the price that you're giving to them. If you can raise their perceived value so that they see alignment at a higher price point, they will purchase it at a higher price point. It is not just that, “Oh, it was on discount,” they only ever buy on discount.
It's not as grabby. You can't just point to that as a little quip in a meeting. But I do think that overall, its perceived value and then the price that you're putting it at and misalignment is what causes people to not purchase. Not that they don't fall into this camp or they needed to be on promo or… you know what I mean?
All these other kinds of like a lot shorter ways people try to write off that mismatch. That from my time in beauty, it was in the premium space, we were a premium beauty brand, but we would run, we would do limited collaborations.
And we did one with ABG for the estate of Marilyn Monroe and I had this box, this wood lacquer box with gold inlay. We bought pieces of Marilyn Monroe's vanity at auction and we recreated the component tree. Like we open mold so that this thing looked like it came right off her vanity because it did because we had the originals.
And normally we were selling products at $25 to $45 on the high end. So squarely in premium, this box was $500. It was way, way higher. But we set the expectation and we conveyed the value so well that I sold out of that in 3 minutes when it went live on the website because people got it. They didn't go, “Oh, 500 really?” We had people saying, “I had to figure out how to pay for this. I put it on a couple credit cards. I asked my friend to buy it and I paid him back.”
They saw it. They connected. They got the value. $500 was not the issue at that point. Because they're like, “I need to have this.” And that is something I carry with me.
After leaving that space is that if you can help show alignment at whatever the price point is to their perceived value. The price... Not to say it's not relevant because if they don't have $1,000, they're not going to buy something that's $1,000.
But when you're in that premium, consumable sub $100, that there's maybe some play around money, you can show alignment with their perceived value. It becomes a different conversation. You're not talking about price. You're talking about something else. You're trading on something else at that point.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely. Nicholas, you're just a wealth of knowledge here.
Is there anything I didn't ask you about today that you think would resonate with our audience?
Nicholas Hernandez
I would say, start looking at a new role, or if you're currently having some struggles, start with the funnel. I mean, I know it's been beaten to death on an Ecomm lingo but start with the funnel. I'd start at the bottom with the people that you know that you have because they are the least expensive customers to try to turn into returning customers.
And then just work your way up and look for cracks. It's not sexy. It's not fun. It's not what's on the cover where they're like, “I turned this thing into $10 billion.” But that's where you're going to get... That's where you're going to make your most concrete and long-term growth is by just slowly moving up the funnel, looking for optimization.
Similar to the post purchase survey, you know, don't, don't be afraid to do something because you're like, “Oh, well, nobody will do that. It's Ecommerce”. Um, “You know, we're not doing things in physical media by and large.”
You can test, and test, and have it fail fast. Test again across the funnel.
A bad email, you send another one. A bad ad, you'll tweak it and you'll send another one. Optimizing up and down the funnel, and then not being afraid to fail fast.
Chase Clymer
Wise words. Nicholas, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Nicholas Hernandez
Thanks for having me, Chase.
Chase Clymer
We can't thank our guests enough for coming on the show and sharing their knowledge and journey with us. We've got a lot to think about and potentially add into our own business. You can find all the links in the show notes.
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