On this episode of Honest Ecommerce, we have Shawn Khemsurov. Shawn is the Co-Founder of Electric Eye, our Shopify expert design and development agency, and a Partner at Feel–a brand studio where art meets commerce. We talk about prioritizing impactful changes before Black Friday, optimizing sales with early split tests, creating custom landing pages for holiday marketing, and so much more!
Shawn brings over ten years of fashion retail experience to the table. He is the Co-Founder of Electric Eye–our Shopify design and development agency, and a Partner at Feel–a brand studio where art meets commerce.
A specialist in design, Shawn has worked with the likes of Abercrombie & Fitch, Gap Inc, Nike, Homage and Only NY. His time in the retail industry, from digital experience to product design, has exposed him to many facets within the business.
This has given him an undeniable ability to identify his clients’ needs; guaranteed to provide a unique experience and to deliver increased engagement across all channels of your business.
In This Conversation We Discuss:
Resources:
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Shawn Khemsurov
The strategy for what your offer is for Black Friday, Cyber Monday, or the holidays in general is like, keeping things simple.
Chase Clymer
Welcome to Honest Ecommerce, a podcast dedicated to cutting through the BS and finding actionable advice for online store owners. I'm your host, Chase Clymer. And I believe running a direct-to-consumer brand does not have to be complicated or a guessing game.
On this podcast, we interview founders and experts who are putting in the work and creating real results.
I also share my own insights from running our top Shopify consultancy, Electric Eye. We cut the fluff in favor of facts to help you grow your Ecommerce business.
Let's get on with the show.
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Honest Ecommerce.
This one is a special one. I looked at the calendar. I know when it's going to come out.
And welcome to the show for the second time, I believe. My business partner, Shawn Khemsurov. How are you doing?
Shawn Khemsurov
Ah, hey. I'm doing good. Thanks for having me here. So kind of you.
Chase Clymer
Yeah, I should probably have you more often actually.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah, I mean, we could do it whenever. It's all good.
Chase Clymer
Alrighty. So quickly, just let people know what it is that you do at the agency much better than I?
Shawn Khemsurov
Everything that you don't do. Now, I mean, mostly, I'm more heavily involved in the projects and just day to day working with the clients, whatever that may entail, so might be doing design or overseeing design and development.
And working with our amazing staff and team to make sure that the client is getting superior work in a good amount of time and also handling financial stuff. The real fun stuff.
Chase Clymer
The spreadsheets that I like to ignore.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. It's why you get into the agency life just to become a manager and crunch numbers all day.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely. It's pretty good. Alright.
So we wanted to talk about Black Friday, Cyber Monday. And when this comes out, it's going to be, I believe, just under 100 days until Black Friday, obviously the day after Thanksgiving here in America.
So what I wanted to do was talk with you and outline what are the things you can realistically do if, for some reason, listening to this podcast is kickstarting you to realize you have to get some stuff done before the big Q4 sales season.
So I guess the first question would be, what can't you do in 100 days?
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah, definitely. I think… It's getting to be too late in most cases to redesign your entire website. Or migrate a website to Shopify or something like that. It's probably too late for that. So you probably want to check that off the list and maybe circle back after the holiday season and start looking at doing major, major renovations in Q1 of 2025.
That's not to say that you can't get a lot done in that time period. Just move down the list to very impactful items.
Chase Clymer
Yeah, absolutely. I think that when you're 3 months away from Black Friday and that sale season, you just have to be realistic and you have to have an 80-20 rule. What's going to be the most impactful stuff you can actually do on the current website and then just put off those major redesign plans until Q1?
And I have this question. Every year, I talk to dozens of merchants and I have to tell them that. I'm like, “You can't do the whole redesign before Black Friday,” And it's also, “You don't want to launch a new website because you're just going to confuse your customers.”
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. Yeah. You're returning customers. It does when you launch a new site. There's always a period where people are getting used to things. The conversion rate might actually drop a little bit before it hopefully goes up if we did everything we're supposed to do.
So you don't want to put that time of recalibration during your busiest time of the year, what I presume is the busiest time of the year. So Black Friday. So we've done it a couple of times where we've been launching in September, October, and it just puts unnecessary pressure on everybody.
And then obviously, creates a hurdle for customers to check out. So you just don't want to do it.
Chase Clymer
Yeah. Brands that launch a net new website like The Week of Black Friday just sound so stressful.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. Yeah, don't do it.
Chase Clymer
Alright. So I think we've definitely driven that point home.
But let's talk about things that you can do.
Shawn Khemsurov
Someone's still going to try it though.
Chase Clymer
Oh, absolutely. Someone's going to listen to this and say, “Those guys don't know what they're talking about,” and they're going to do it anyway.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. Listen, I could... If you really wanted it, I could launch it. We could get something done. But it's like, you got to pay double for the stress.
Chase Clymer
Yeah. All right.
So let's talk about what we can actually do. I think first and foremost, I really want to just talk about the offer that you're putting together for Black Friday, Cyber Monday. What should people keep in mind when they're ideating on what they're doing for their sale?
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. It's always fun to be creative and come up with something really cool. But I often advise that people keep things fairly simple. Percentage off is always... It's tried and true. But be clear about what it is.
And I would say make it over most of the whole site, like almost on all of your products. If you can, obviously, there's some people that have different offerings, you need to protect some margins on certain products. But just the message has to be able to be conveyed very quickly and very easily. So we're having a sale. It's across these days.
This is the deal. Make it simple for your customers.
Chase Clymer
What are your thoughts on when brands want to do a different deal every day?
Shawn Khemsurov
I think it could go both directions. It could be good just because it could keep people interested and zoning into the exact thing that they want. But it can also just lead to confusion. People don't know what deal is what day. Some people are traveling, they can't access the site that day.
It's like, just give them an opportunity in a longer period of time to actually shop your store and cash in on the deal and get what they want for their friends and family.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely. And so let's talk about some things that you can add into your store.
First and foremost, I guess, is Q4. The holiday sale season revolves around gifting. So how would you incorporate gifting into a Shopify store and into a strategy for Black Friday?
Shawn Khemsurov
Definitely. I mean, I think that what Shopify has done to improve gift cards has been, it's been really cool to see. I think a lot of them are mostly compatible with all the online store 2.0, but you can add pretty simply just make sure that you have all of the features activated just out of the box from Shopify.
Like sending gift cards on a specific date like scheduling and some personalization and just... The experience has improved from where it used to just be like forwarding the gift card numbers over to your friends and family. It was just kind of a sloppy way to do it. But it's getting better.
And then if you want to also improve on that process even more, you can look at an app like Cavallo or another that just has additional personalization and features like store credit and all that stuff.
But just make sure your gift card is active and that you have it as an option because shipping times vary and we're getting down to the wire on delivery times and stuff like that. It's an easy option and people don't have to pick the exact item for somebody.
Make sure you have your gift card linked all squared away. Do it now.
Chase Clymer
And you can also... If you've got a pretty giftable product... What I'm thinking specifically in my head is coffee.
Shawn Khemsurov
Mm-hmm.
Chase Clymer
An easy... Nothing's easy. But a straightforward strategy you could implement in your stores. There are ways to send those products to a different customer than the purchaser. So actually gift the product by buying it.
There are solutions in the App Store or there are ways to do it with custom code. And that's a pretty straightforward process that you can build in your store that you can then build some marketing around and tell your customers about as part of your Black Friday, Cyber Monday or Q4 sales strategy.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah, it makes things easier. Even gift guides and things like that. How can you make a shopping site… When looking for a gift, I'm the type of person that… I'm not the best gift giver.
But if I can go to a site and say, “I like this brand,” or “My partner likes this brand,” or “My friend.” Go to the site and maybe there's gifts under 50, gifts under 100, gifts for her, gifts for him, all that stuff.
The extra work you can do right now, it’s not even crazy difficult developer stuff. It's like marketing and merchandising your assortment for easy gift buying. It's the way to go.
Chase Clymer
Yeah. Basically writing a blog post in Shopify that just says, 2024 Gift Guide from Brand.
Shawn Khemsurov
You can make a collection. That's very easy stuff. So all of it.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely.
We talked a little bit about sales and you mentioned that percentage off is straightforward. But also I think bundles crush it. What's the landscape about bundles in Shopify these days?
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. Bundles, a great way to sell more stuff and package things together with a discount. You can research which products are being bought together often and you can bundle those up, either a prepackaged bundle product or a build your own kind of bundle thing.
People sometimes like to choose if you have similar products with different flavors or colors and things like that, that make sense for a bundle.
But Shopify has their option, which they've been doing a good job of doing the minimum product for all of these different features. Or you could go with something like... I think it's called the Fast Bundle product. But there are some different apps in the App Store. I think that's the fun one right now.
But yeah, look at your data and make a decision and make some cool offers. It's always a good way to do it.
Chase Clymer
Yeah. I think bundling is a concept that is so ubiquitous. There's a lot of ways you can do it. So often in the sales cycle, when I'm talking to new brands, I tell them to go explore the solutions to help inform how they want to build their bundle.
Because sometimes people come with the way they want to build their bundle almost set in stone. Or maybe already marketing around how it works. And it's a bit harder to approach a certain way of doing a bundle if it has to be done a certain way. Because computers are dumb and they only do exactly what you tell them to do.
And there isn't a one-size-fits-all solution for bundles because you can do them a lot of different ways. You can do a percentage off, you can do a fixed amount off. Build your own versus a fixed bundle. There are different ways that you have to implement those. Also, a free gift with purchase adds another layer of complexity to these things.
If you know that bundling is a weak point within your business, I'd reach out to either some of these apps or a solution provider like us to help you navigate that because it is a little difficult.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. Again, keep it simple. Don't go crazy. You don't need 10 bundles. You don't need to have 100 products in your bundle builder. Just make a couple easy choices and let it rip.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely.
So let's say that we made this awesome bundle and we've made a gift guide. What's another more straightforward marketing angle thing that we could build out on our website?
Shawn Khemsurov
I think once you have this awesome offer, you could do a custom landing page for marketing purposes. So if you're sending an ad spend to a specific product, jazz up the page a little bit. Make it really clear what your deal is for the holidays. Make it clear what the product is, what the benefits are.
So yeah, there's some really great information out there about landing pages and how to optimize them. And I would just research that and put some things into place or hire a designer developer to help you maybe come up with a landing, special landing page for your offer or your best selling product or products. And make sure that you're getting every bit out of that ad spend.
Chase Clymer
Yeah. What we've been doing for clients this past year is we're building out a specific template within Shopify. This is now... This has got to be a 2.0 theme. We built out a specific landing page template for clients that you can change and manipulate within the customizer. And then you can launch something that's specific to your Black Friday sale.
You can even put Intelligems over top of it and split test your offer or the layout of that landing page.
But I think you mentioned it before. If you're driving ad traffic and the marketing message is all about your Cyber Monday sale, there probably isn't a good place on your website currently that can speak and match that message. So having a landing page built out that matches that message will probably do wonders for you.
But also you could get a little more optimized. You can strip down the header and the footer and make it very conversion-oriented.
You and I were testing ChatGPT and getting an MVP version of a landing page layout. And so there's this awesome blog article out there on Wishpond. It's the AIDA formula for writing a landing page. It basically just comes down to attention, interest, desire, and action. And it lays it out.
And you can honestly just take your best-selling product or your bundle and in ChatGPT be like, “Write a landing page using this strategy for this product.” And it will get you pretty close.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah, it was cool to see how much better that was than what my first draft would have been. So use these tools and use the knowledge out there to your advantage. You can always revise the copy and you don't want to post straight ChatGPT stuff. But as a starting point, it's a cool tool to just get things moving, get the words flowing and then fix it up.
But yeah, just more content about your products, more background. The more comfortable your customers are going to feel about it. So it's just as important as images and video and all that stuff, which you could put on the landing page.
Chase Clymer
Yep. Testimonials, unboxing or user-generated content. That social proof really goes a long way.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. Good stuff.
Chase Clymer
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Chase Clymer
Now my favorite thing to talk about with potential clients, and it's so often overlooked, is just upsells and cross-sells throughout their website. And I think this is something every brand can tackle in the next 100 days.
So where do you think is the easiest money for these brands to get?
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah, I'm a big fan of... I think these upsells, once again, going back to the strategy for what your offer is for Black Friday, Cyber Monday, or the holidays in general. It's like keeping things simple. We've noticed that oftentimes, if people have the upsells and cross sells already on their store, they might just be over-complicating it.
You only really need data proofs. You only need a few products and a few places strategically to optimize your average order value. So I think having those offers on your product page... Obviously, you don't want it to be huge, but somewhere on the product page, additional products that go well with your product is a good idea.
And then if you have a cart slider or cart drawer, you wanna have those upsells in there as well. So if someone adds something to cart, they're now seeing the second opportunity to add something, maybe they didn't see it on the PDP. Now they see it in the cart and they're saying, “Oh, what else is available? What goes with this?” Or “What's an accessory with my item that makes sense?” And put that, you know, make sure that's in place.
Now, Shopify with extensions is making it a lot easier to do checkout upsells. So actually when they're entering their information, another area to advertise offers and then post-purchase as well. And so just when someone has already checked out, trying to get them to reconsider and add an extra item onto their order.
They exist because they work. You don't want to go overkill and do pop-ups on site, advise against that. But just having them in places that aren't overwhelming, but make sure they're apparent and people can see them. And they will interact with those things and add them to the cart.
Chase Clymer
Yeah. What I like to say is people like to buy but they don't like to be sold. So it's like, fit the aesthetic and feel like it's supposed to be there. It's got to be like a helping salesperson in person, but not like an overbearing salesman.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. Yeah. And I think an app we've been using lately with great success is Upsell Plus. Shout out to them. They're an awesome team. It's a little bit newer, but they integrate so nicely with the 2.0 themes. And if you run into any issues, their customer service is untouchable. They'll even help you with your strategy if you ask them nicely, hopefully.
Chase Clymer
One of the reasons we like them... Well, I guess there are two reasons. One is they actually have upsells for almost everything that we just talked about. In-cart.
And the way that their in-cart works is you can add the script to your existing cart drawer so it doesn't take over the cart like some other competitive apps do. And those tend to be a little heavier and slow down the site. And so we really liked what Upsell Plus was doing. We've used it for a few clients.
And then just like a note on checkout, if you're considering moving to Shopify Plus and you need to be on Plus to get that checkout thing, it more than likely will pay for itself if you actually move to plus and then put a checkout upsell in.
And then the other... I forget who said this and I wish I could remember. But someone once told me that putting an upsell post-purchase is just free money. They have already bought. It's not like they're gonna go away. It's just free money. So that's also something that people should consider.
But again, it goes back to what we were saying about bundles. You got to think about it. You have to have a strategy first before you can implement these solutions.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. And always... There's options at the very lowest budget. You can just... A lot of the time with the premium themes, you can just have stuff built in like upsells, impact themes, which we use a lot. It may not be as sophisticated as the app.
But if you're in budget-conscious land, then you can leverage those and just make sure that you're using all of the features included in your theme. And there's some opportunities for more and more now to just put those right into the theme.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely.
Shawn Khemsurov
If you want to get into discounts though, which is juicy, that's when you need an app or some custom dev to make it work. But yeah, that's for Black Friday, Cyber Monday. It could be really compelling.
Chase Clymer
Yeah. I think a use case that makes a ton of sense to utilize the apps is when you're going from a one-time purchase to a subscription upsell. You need an app for that.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely more complicated stuff isn't going to be solved. But yeah. No reason you shouldn't have upsells, cross-sells, etc. That's like a number one. It's just easy money.
Chase Clymer
Yeah. So I guess… We’ve got a few more that we want to touch on here.
This one is a little more development-heavy, which would be page speed optimization. You're going to have to hire someone smart to help you out there. But you can definitely... I think that a lot of... You can't redesign your site.
I think a lot of the reasons people want to redesign sites these days is because they aren't getting the performance that they want. But you can optimize the page speed. If you have a developer take a look at things. There are efficiencies that you can put into the code to move the needle, especially on mobile.
And there's also app solutions out there like Nostra that can really change the game with edge delivery network stuff. I think we've worked on PageSpeed for the last dozen clients that we've consulted on, haven't we?
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. It's a popular ask. I think ever since Shopify put some of the PageSpeed information front and center on the dashboard, people were concerned about it. Probably before that, clients were that concerned about it.
But as your traffic goes up and you have a lot of people visiting the site, especially during some of these holiday rushes, every second counts. So it is very smart to take a look at it and see what can be done. Your images might not be optimized. You might have extra code. All kinds of stuff.
But it's worth having someone that knows what they're doing take a look at it. You can definitely get some of that stuff done pretty quickly and well before the holiday rush.
Chase Clymer
Yeah, it's very surprising how often we take a look at sites and it's like the assets that are loading are the full resolution assets from the design file that have never been optimized for web.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. And Shopify is supposed to optimize some of that stuff for you. But I still don't fully buy it. I need someone to look into it a little bit more. We're questioning whether it's doing what it claims to be doing.
They claim you can just put whatever size image in and it will serve it up in an optimized fashion. But oftentimes, those are called out.
So we just say anytime we're working with the client, it's like, “Optimize your images before they go into Shopify, come up with the process. Videos too should be under 10 megabytes,” and stuff like that.
There's information on the Shopify documentation for optimized file sizes. But just make them small and throw them in. Don't leave it to chance.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely. And in that same vein, I think that optimizing your website for mobile, like the UX on mobile, is definitely something that you can tackle in the next 100 days.
Specifically, when we're doing this for clients, the way I think about it is, “What's closest to the money?” So it's like, look at the product page of your most popular product and actually use it on your cell phone. And you're going to quickly notice goofy things.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. I'm a designer. So my inclination is always to look at the desktop because it's big and pretty and you can make it beautiful and interesting. But then when things go down in size, it's less interesting, but way more important. Because oftentimes, when we look at our clients' traffic, it's the majority of what's happening on mobile. So you just have to keep on reminding yourself throughout optimization.
And when you're looking at your store, just always look on mobile. Make sure everything is flowing. Navigation is easy to read and easy to click with your thumbs. And yeah, everything's moving quickly. There's no bugs.
It can be a costly mistake if you have things that you missed just because you didn't do some testing on mobile.
Chase Clymer
Yeah, I think when people start to utilize a lot of apps, sometimes there's apps competing for screen real estate and covering things up and just like breaking the user experience on mobile.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. You don't want your chat widget covering your checkout button. It seems pretty straightforward, but I see it all the time. So dial up that Z-index and get things sorted out.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely.
Another thing that I think you can get done before Black Friday, Cyber Monday, and this actually kind of goes hand in hand with mobile optimization because we specifically ask people to do mobile testing.
You could hire some user tests to do actual interactions with your website. And we're big fans of Playbook UX. And the cool thing about that product offering is you can just pay per test that you want to do. And we recommend about 5 people. But you can actually specify the demographic and the desktop versus mobile.
So the other day, we actually used... We knew the demographic of a beauty brand was a woman of a certain age, in a certain range. And the quickness to which you get feedback from these people was... It was less than 24 hours. I think it was less than 4 hours.
Shawn Khemsurov
That was a mind-boggling aspect of it was just how quickly the feedback came back. And I mean, it's so important because, again, I'm a designer at heart. We look at Ecommerce all day long for years. And it's like you have crazy biases.
And then you can have people that are closer to the profile of your ideal customer and just get the use and get the feedback. And it's just like eye opening. You're like, I actually would never have thought of that. And it's just like things that make sense to us. We just... We've been looking at this stuff all the time.
And what may be intuitive to us is not intuitive for the customer. So it's cool to have another point of view.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely.
I think that brands are always way too close to their own website. And then their agencies get a little too close to it pretty quickly. You can never have another first impression of a website. And that's like these people, it's their first impressions and what they call out is usually just so impactful. And it can easily lead itself to either something that you need to fix with development or something you need to clarify with copy.
But also it's maybe something you can test. So I think this would be... It's a good segue to talk a bit about our favorite tool in the world, Intelligems. But you can absolutely split test a lot of the things that you're trying for your big sales.
You could try a test sale a little bit before and see what copy resonates better or what offer resonates better by using split testing and Intelligems just seamlessly works with Shopify.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. Once again, you have your opinion as the merchant and store owner. We have our opinion as the agency or designer. And then your customer has the ultimate opinion.
Chase Clymer
Yeah. But they also have the money.
Shawn Khemsurov
They got the money. Yeah. They make the rules.
Yeah, just like... doing as much as you can to take yourself out of it is very smart. And then if you do it now in August or September, and then you have it dialed in by the time your sales go live and you know what works, it's like... That's just extra money in your pocket.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely.
And then the one last thing that we strategized here. And this was actually from Andrew, our strategist and the smartest person on our team was like, “Everyone should be double checking that all their remarketing pixels are actually in place and working correctly and all the data is going back and forth.”
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah. A lot of changes with Shopify and things are moving around. You have checkout scripts and things like that changing. So it's good to stay on top of it and make sure everything's working properly.
Chase Clymer
Yeah.
And that one should be probably the easiest one for you. If you're working with a marketing partner, just ask them to double check it and confirm it. Because if you're going to be dumping tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars into your ads, driving new traffic, and you're not pixelating those people to help with your remarketing efforts later on, you're leaving money on the table.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah, absolutely.
Chase Clymer
Awesome.
Shawn Khemsurov
You have to get all the data so you can make good decisions and then make them even better next year.
Chase Clymer
Well, Shawn, if I listen to this podcast and there's a bunch of things that I want to do and I want a team to help them, what should I do?
Shawn Khemsurov
Oh, wow. Yeah. Definitely, if you need help with optimizations, designing development in advance of Black Friday, which is a great idea, then you can always hire Electric Eye.
Chase Clymer
Absolutely.
Shawn Khemsurov
electriceye.io. You can come check out our site and see what we do. Shopify experts for many years. But always down for a challenge. Yeah, let us help you strategize your Black Friday and make it rain.
Chase Clymer
Awesome. Thanks so much for coming on today, Shawn.
Shawn Khemsurov
Yeah, thank you for having me. I'll be back soon, I'm sure.
Chase Clymer
We can't thank our guests enough for coming on the show and sharing their knowledge and journey with us. We've got a lot to think about and potentially add into our own business. You can find all the links in the show notes.
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Lastly, if you're a store owner looking for an amazing partner to help get your Shopify store to the next level, reach out to Electric Eye at electriceye.io/connect.
Until next time!