On this bonus episode of Honest Ecommerce, we have Matthew Holman. Matthew is one of the leading subscription experts in Ecommerce. We talk about supporting merchants with subscription products, redefining value in subscription offerings, understanding customer types for better retention, and so much more!
Matthew Holman is a leading expert in the ecommerce subscription industry, with extensive experience in optimizing customer experience, retention strategies, and data-driven decision-making.
He specializes in fractional subscription leadership, where he helps brands understand the complexities of subscriptions so that they can scale.
Matthew currently lives in Utah, where he enjoys time with family, running, movies, and the vibrant ecommerce community.
In This Conversation We Discuss:
Resources:
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Matthew Holman
What can I do more for them? What would they like more of for me because they're the ones that are spending money with me?
Chase Clymer
Welcome to Honest Ecommerce, a podcast dedicated to cutting through the BS and finding actionable advice for online store owners. I'm your host, Chase Clymer. And I believe running a direct-to-consumer brand does not have to be complicated or a guessing game.
On this podcast, we interview founders and experts who are putting in the work and creating real results.
I also share my own insights from running our top Shopify consultancy, Electric Eye. We cut the fluff in favor of facts to help you grow your Ecommerce business.
Let's get on with the show.
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Honest Ecommerce.
Today, I'm welcoming to the show Matthew Holman, The Subscription Doc. How are you doing today, Matthew?
Matthew Holman
I'm doing great, Chase. How are you?
Chase Clymer
I'm doing good. Awesome. So let's dive in here.
For those that are unaware, just tell us quickly, what is The Subscription Doc? What kind of content or what are you doing on the internet these days?
Matthew Holman
Absolutely. So Subscription Doc or Subscription Prescription started about a little over two years ago. My partner and I basically were kind of looking at the subscription space.
I was running growth for a subscription management platform called QPilot and kind of seeing the space thinking, you know, there's a lack of knowledge or thought leadership, there wasn't really much in the sense of like newsletters, podcasts, focusing on subscriptions.
So we kind of started that as a partial lead gen for QPilot at the time, but also seeing this big opportunity. And the more we've done it, we found more and more people just really resonating with getting help getting expert advice on how to build subscription programs.
Chase Clymer
That's amazing.
So take me back in time, kind of what was your career journey working towards you just saying, “You know what? We’re going to go all in on subscriptions. Everything else is boring.” Not boring, but it makes the most sense to play in this part of the pond.
Matthew Holman
Well, it's funny you say boring or everything else is boring. What I was doing before subscriptions is shipping. So I was running marketing for a SaaS company that was selling shipping rates and shipping technology to Ecommerce brands.
And the irony here... Or I guess the fun story is that my boss's sister started working at the company. You know, we fell in love, we started dating, fell in love. And so for my own health of that relationship, I decided I needed to get a different career going, or at least move out to another company.
And I also wanted to dip my toe into the entrepreneurial water. So I had the opportunity to, I got introduced to David, the founder of QPilot. We hit it off really well because QPilot is very logistics and shipping focused as a subscription platform and my shipping background.
And honestly, if I can write blogs that make priority cubic mail shipping sound even mildly interesting, I've got to be a good content marketer. So that kind of was the start of that relationship.
And the more and more I got into subscriptions, it just really resonated with me. There's a lot of math, there's a lot of customer experience. There's a lot of things that I just kind of like resonate with. And the more I talk and help people with it, it's just something that…
I think for me also, it's less about marketing SaaS now and more about consulting and helping people solve problems. And that part, it just works a lot better for me personally and professionally.
Chase Clymer
Gotcha. So what are the types of clients that you're typically working with?
Is it mostly into merchants with some sort of subscription element or are you still on the other side of the coin as well, helping these SaaS companies better articulate what they're doing?
Matthew Holman
Yeah, mostly it's on the DTC side. I still help out a little bit on the B2B front when I can.
But most of the time, the work is related to a physical good company that's selling pet food or CBD, a supplement, devices, beauty devices, you know, like head shavers, toothbrushes, things like that have been a lot of my clients recently. So it's usually a physical good, something in the customer's hands.
But it's funny there's a big overlap between the experience that you see on apps and SaaS side, cause I think a lot of apps are really good at trying to drive adoption, trying to deliver value. And I think subscription brands can learn a lot about that kind of experience–trying to onboard people, educate them, teach them, and get them to use the product in order to improve retention.
Chase Clymer
Yeah, that is a huge component of retention. If you have been lucky enough to get a customer to actually subscribe to your subscription product, understanding how to keep them around is crucial.
And there's a million reasons why people churn, but they'll tell you usually and you can usually try to solve that to keep them around a little bit longer, which is only going to increase the health of your business.
Now, I don't know if that's a rabbit hole that you want to go down right now. But I know it was just... That's what you made me think of just then.
Matthew Holman
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what's interesting is the subscription space has really been kind of formed by a lot of the apps, right? Like the Recharge and Bold were some of the front runners. And then now you have Stay and Skio, Smartrr and Loop that have been coming on and building things.
And so the interesting part though, is that subscription apps really… I mean, they're trying to touch more, but they mostly touch the retention side of things. So they mostly touched the facts like how people manage their order. So there's a lot of really cool tools and innovation coming on that.
But the problem is, is that a lot of where growth and change in customer experience comes from is actually in many ways independent of those apps. But a lot of brands feel like, “Stay should come in and transform my entire experience.” It's like, “Well, no, Klaviyo is still going to be your number one resource for communicating with subscribers.”
So thinking through things like how you're bringing people on, when we're talking about how we actually improve attention, yes, you use those apps to make those changes to make things better, but you have to be looking at how I am talking to people from an email standpoint.
What does my unboxing look like? What type of offers I'm bringing in? So that's one of those fun things.
Think about an app that you download. I think it's like, just think of the last time maybe you downloaded an app to help you with sleep or exercise or something like that. You download it, start asking you questions, it starts trying to get more information about what you need, what you want, and then tries to give you an experience that matches that.
And if you're selling, say, protein powder as a supplement for your brand and you're not thinking that same way, you're missing out. How do I get more information for what this person needs this product for? What are they doing? Then how do I start to personalize that experience for them?
And so yes, you use the subscription apps to do some of that. But again, a lot of that is using tools like NopCommerce and Klaviyo to try to collect information and deliver those experiences.
Chase Clymer
Yeah. I mean, we've dropped a bunch of app names in this episode. And I am familiar with and have used almost all of them. And the one thing that they all have in common is... This even goes back to Shopify being guilty of this: it's painting this picture that everything is easy. And that it's all plug and play and you're going to be a millionaire after the fact.
It's almost a less sleazy version of the get rich quick drop shipping, now you have the Ferrari stuff you used to see all over the internet a few years back. It's like, “No, it's building a business. Even though these apps are so well integrated, an app doesn't solve an underlying business problem without a strategy. It's not going to do anything for you.”
And so on our side...on the agency side of things, when we're working with brands that have a subscription element, one of the first foundational struggles that they have is they're like, “Hey, we want to launch a subscription,” And we go, “Cool. How? What is the subscription?”
Because there are... I don't know, Matt, how many different ways have you seen people build out subscriptions? It's almost... the limit doesn't exist.
Matthew Holman
Yeah, I'm not sure. There's always some kind of tweak or permutation. And I've seen a lot of really fun ones.
Chase Clymer
Fun, interesting is always good. But as long as you test at first and fundamentally make sure that your customers want it.
But that's one of the biggest hurdles, I think, for people that are trying to adopt a subscription program: They don't... They haven't sat down and thought about it.
Matthew Holman
Yeah. And that's the absolute truth of it. You have to spend time figuring out what's the value problem. So a question I get asked by agency owners, SaaS companies, others like, “How do I start potentially looking at offering a subscription model?” Podcasting is another option. Like I have a friend who does podcast consulting.
So the answer for them is the same for any brand. It's like thinking through what service or need is being underserved that you think you can deliver more value for and why?
And then again, I think we have a hard time as founders sometimes of getting on the other side of the table and thinking like, “Okay, well, I've got this amazing product I'm going to discount at 15%. I should have people flocking in droves to subscribe.”
“Well, would that be enough for you to subscribe?” “Well, no.” “Okay. What extra things can we do?”
And a lot of it, again, a lot of what I do from a consulting standpoint is trying to help brands get better at gathering information and understanding the problem. So I mentioned NopCommerce, but I talk a lot about quizzes, pop-ups, things you can do before purchase to try to get more information to start trying to understand the use case, the desires, the goals, the dreams of the people that are coming to your site and what they're looking for. Because then you can actually start to offer that for them.
Chase Clymer
This is actually very top of mind for our agency. We're doing a lot of work with landing pages. And that's a very... There's almost a direct correlation between a quiz-style landing page and then selling them the thing that they want.
Obviously, there's the 800-pound gorilla in the quiz space, Octane AI.
Are there any upstarts in the ecosystem that you've also been exploring?
Matthew Holman
Yeah, I wouldn't call them an upstart. But I really love Digioh. They've actually come from outside of the DTC space and some memberships and some other companies that have come to Shopify. They're doing a ton with how they're able to like onboard and how dynamic their quizzes are doing.
They're also leaning a little bit harder on some of the personalization side where you can show people different quizzes once you identify who they are. So it's kind of like if you took retention.com and combined it with Octane AI, you could start to identify who might be anonymous to your site, but they recognize it and that can show a different quiz experience.
And then also, I'm loving to see some of the stuff like what Alialearn and Formtoro are doing from a pop-up standpoint. Both of them are trying to lean much harder into this zero party data concept where you can actually in order to get a discount, you're not just capturing an email. You're actually capturing more information or you're doing a little bit of storytelling yourself. That's one of the things I think makes Alialearn really cool.
So it's like if you want to learn more about a pet owner, and you can ask more questions about their pet and what they care about, what's important to them in order to give them the discount.
Chase Clymer
I would guess if you got their animal's name, and you were addressing the animal in your emails through your... Whatever email software you're using, you would see a tangible uptick in sales.
Matthew Holman
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Chase Clymer
If someone's like, “Hey, Bella needs more dog food,” I'm like, “You're absolutely right”. Boom.
Matthew Holman
Well then, if you know what breed Bella is, if you knew what age Bella is.
Chase Clymer
You know her birthday.
Matthew Holman
Those are extra... Yeah, right. Then you have a couple of... You have the name, birthday, you can use those. But then it's like, “Hey, I know what dogs of this size or this breed… here's common problems or things that people like owners…” like that.
If you have a little Teacup Poodle as opposed to a big German Shepherd, maybe that says something about the type of dog owner you are and maybe how you would market to them differently as well.
I'm not going to send like, “Make sure your dog is healthy enough to run on the trails with you,” to a teacup poodle or whatever. I'm sending that to the German Shepherd owner, right? Kind of thing.
So yeah, like just being able to gather all of that before the point of purchase means you can deliver a better experience, but then it also makes that subscription experience that much more impactful. I know now what's going to be more motivating to that owner, what's going to do better on retention, understanding their problems, I can sell it to them and speak to them in the right way.
Chase Clymer
Okay. So I just want to walk through some of the things we've talked about so far. So we talked about one of the foundational things that brands need to do is they really need to think about their subscription offering and what that is going to be before they start looking at technology solutions.
Because sometimes these solutions have quirks to them to where what you want to do that you then need to find the right technology to do it. And that comes up all the time when we're consulting on this stuff.
But when we were talking about that, you alluded to people doing some fun stuff. So what are some ways that brands are innovating in subscription?
Matthew Holman
Yeah, I think how some of them are leveraging membership models is really exciting. So I think of... I have a friend here in Utah. They run a couple of different brands where they're actually charging a membership fee in order to access the site to get wholesale pricing.
So they're charging you,, it's similar to the Fabletics model, which is like, “Hey, you pay us the subscription and then you get access to all these products at a discount kind of thing.”
So they're basically charging like a $12-13 subscription monthly to get 50% off all of their goods. And so they have a few different brands with a few different angles. So basically, they're charging people for access to their site.
So the idea that you're actually paying them a flat fee every month in order to buy products from them is what I think of when I think of fun. It's like, that's the ultimate game: I'm charging you for access to my stuff to spend money with me. It's like somebody paying money to get into a carnival to waste a ton more money with you.
And so there's that.
Chase Clymer
The Costco model.
Matthew Holman
Yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah, exactly. Costco is a great example where you're seeing brands like Carnivore snacks, Xendurance that are leveraging memberships as a means of offering a higher level of tier or service to people.
I think what's really exciting is when you have brands like Pura that are doing fragrance air in your home and now they're leveraging heavy technology, an app allowing you to see how much scent is left in the dispensers, like being able to reorder from that experience.
And so as soon as I see a brand start to add an extra communication touch point, whether that's like, an app experience, whether that's like a tap cart Shopify type app or whether it's their own custom app, whether they're pairing something with content. Instead of just buying protein powder, you're buying access to a workout course or series that has products with it.
So to me, that's where things get really kind of fun and interesting. It's like people are adding an extra layer to the subscription that not only enhances it but also makes it more interesting.
Chase Clymer
That's definitely something that I wanted to talk about today. And you alluded to it a bit ago too. It's like I've got a product. It's a great product. We've got a real business here and it sells.
And me as a founder, I assume if I just give you this product every month for 15% off or whatever, you as a consumer would be happy with that and that is enough value. And I argue… Probably not enough value. That's like table stakes in this kind of age of commerce.
But also, do you actually need to discount? Or can you be more creative about how you're adding value into this subscription? And those value ads, I've seen done so creatively.
For example, what you just said, I see a lot of brands that sell protein powders or supplements in general. When you purchase them on subscription, you can then get access to all of their private databases of all of this content about dieting and exercise, etc. And it's usually very nuanced to the goals of that purchase.
You don't even have to discount but you get on subscription, you also have access to this valuable database. All that is increasing your work upfront to build that kind of library of information. That's a perfect example of ways that you can be creative about things. Like, what's the value add to make sure that someone wants to get a subscription?
I think other ways to think about it are like a free gift with purchase. Obviously, discounts are something that people consider. But there's a lot of ways to do it without degrading.
Matthew Holman
Yeah. I was literally doing this conversation with a big brand here in Utah yesterday. And I raised this question to them and I'll raise this question here to everybody. If I'm selling a $50 product and I'm discounting that 20% to get somebody onto a subscription, so that's $10 essentially I'm marking off that product.
If I look in the rest of the catalog, what's my landed cost for my average product? Well, a lot of their answers are, “That’s under $5 is the landed cost.” So would you be better off discounting that heavily or maybe giving a five or 10% discount or no discount and then giving a free product?
Okay, well, from a margin standpoint, I'd rather give away more product because that means I'm gonna protect more margin. It's gonna be cheaper to me than just discounting it by 10 or 20%.
But then you start walking down what customer experience in psychology looks like. We're talking about a premium beauty brand that's heavily discounting goods to get people onto a subscription, as opposed to would you rather have somebody who's coming in and they're really incentivized by that discount? Or would you rather get somebody who's really incentivized by the combo of the products you're offering them?
Chase Clymer
Yeah, you want to do the value because that's the derivative of the offer.
Matthew Holman
Right. And so that's like, okay, if as a buyer, if I find the product combo more compelling, I'm most likely to be using both of those products.
Chase Clymer
and then it's more sticky.
Matthew Holman
Which makes me stickier from a retention standpoint. And then I'm gonna be more open to buying other products from the skincare line, as opposed to the discount approach. If I don't see big discounts, you're not gonna motivate me to make more purchases. And then if I don't think your serum is on par with, or if I think your serum is just as good as a brand where I can get half off on Amazon, then I'm gonna go to that one, right? So two different types of buyers' experiences.
And we can talk about this, like whether it's pet food with treats, whether it's supplements and protein powder with creatine or pre-workout. There's a lot of different opportunities to be able to do that when you have a diverse SKU catalog.
It's a little bit harder when you have a hero product. But then with the hero product, it's more about what more information can I get from people while they're buying my hero product? Because now if I don't have those products available, I can go develop those. And that's where your opportunity is. “I've got this one big product that 90% of people buy. Well, now I'm going to start looking at ways I can enhance and develop products for that.”
And I'll just finish that by saying Xendurance on my podcast told me that one of their co-founders said they literally develop new products just to introduce them to their membership program. So it's like, “Here's a perk. We're trying to roll out another set of skews of stuff because we know our members would like it and they're willing to pay for it and they get access to those.”
And so it's like that mindset of, “Oh, we're just going to keep developing stuff that they're going to buy from us.
Chase Clymer
Yeah.
Now, just a quick little sidebar on discounting in general from a consumer psychology perspective.
If your customers are used to you discounting, they will probably wait to buy from you in general. So you're creating this weird relationship with your customers. But also, statistically not the best customer compared to a customer that buys because they believe in the brand's value.
You usually run into those types of issues when you're dealing with more discount, budget, value, commoditized offerings–not as much as you go a little more towards premium and upmarket stuff. But it is worth mentioning. There is a reason to not discount outside of the margin. It's the customer service. Those types of buyers are often a little more demanding. I don't know.
Matthew Holman
No, I agree. I agree. Again, it just makes me think. My wife for a while was subscribed to Prose, which is this personalized shampoo and conditioner. They formulate it personally for you. So that offer... She's willing to pay a premium price for that as opposed to just buying discount shampoo or shampoo that she had to be motivated by a discount to be able to buy.
There's a lot of things out there that are really creative with how people are developing products, the quality of products.
And often if you get that right, you don't need to discount to get that, but for most brands, you have to figure out some way or some lever, you're trying to get somebody across that finish line. And discounts are usually the easiest way to do that, but when you lead with a discount, you lose your best last second lever.
If you think Black Friday, or I'm sitting on the fence about this purchase, I've got it added to my cart and I've been thinking about it for two days and I finally get that “here's an extra 10% off”, you go make the purchase now, boom. But that works best for people that are already in the strong consideration stage. If the only reason somebody's coming into that funnel is because of the discount, then you have a problem. You have a lot of problems.
Chase Clymer
So I would say, speaking of problems and mistakes, what are some of the common mistakes that you see subscription brands making so we can try to help anyone thinking about it to avoid them?
Matthew Holman
Yeah, I would say the biggest one is from a philosophical standpoint and think about strategy at a high level. Again, I've looked at literally hundreds of subscription brands from my time at QPilot and as The Subscription Doc.
And one of the biggest things I noticed time and time again is that there's a little bit of this siloed approach for how subscriptions work. You have your growth team that's trying to drive down CAC in order to acquire subscribers at the cheapest price. And then you have a retention team that's trying to work really hard to give them discounts or surprise and delight or some other kind of element to get somebody to stay on a subscription longer.
And so I would say, again, one of the biggest mistakes is having those things siloed, right? So if you're driving down CAC because of how you're forming a big bundle and how you're discounting it in order to get somebody to buy but you're incentivizing somebody from a discount standpoint, like we just mentioned, then that's going to make it harder to retain somebody because retention now is losing out on the option to like maybe discount or give away something to make that happen.
So anything you can do to step back and just look at, “Okay, who's coming in? Why are they coming in? Why are they buying?” That's how we can work with them on retention. So just something as simple as coffee, right?
If we're selling the perfect home-brewed coffee, we can look at the types of people that are coming in. Is it people that are new to brewed coffee or people who've heard about it and they have a friend who does it or is it people that are old pros at brewed coffee? And so they're looking for a better brewed coffee experience or a better flavor or something.
So just understanding that difference in the type of like potential buyer changes how you might speak to somebody on the product page and the confirmation emails in the welcome series.
One's more about educating about how to get started and what a great cup of brewed coffee is. And you often want to oversimplify that for them. As opposed to somebody who's a pro, you're going to want to spend a lot of time differentiating yourself between other brewed coffee brands.
So everything you can do to try to unify what that looks like from the growth and retention standpoint is honestly one of the biggest opportunities for brands to grow.
Chase Clymer
If the subscription element of your business is a major chunk of it, everything Matthew is really talking about here is basically conversion rate optimization. But you're looking at some other KPIs.
On the front end, you obviously want to get subscriptions. You want to get signups for your actual subscription thing. And you can do all the traditional CRO stuff, heat maps, scroll maps, user testing, customer interviews. You can find out how people are getting there. And what are those decisions that they're making to purchase the subscription or not purchase the subscription. That's all traditional CRO.
But from there, you can do the same style of ideation and testing on the churn stuff. You start to interview the people that are churning and asking why. And you're gonna learn a whole bunch of information. And sometimes it's not what you think it is.
Matthew, you shared a story on my podcast the other day, about a churn problem, I think it was pet food sizes. You want to elaborate?
Matthew Holman
iHeartDogs. Yeah. And just before I dive into that, because what you're saying on the CRO stuff is absolutely true. And I'm curious to hear from you.
When you're running CRO tests with subscriptions, are you paying attention to 90-day LTV? Because 90-day, 180... You need to put some kind of timeframe because while you might do better initially, I'd be willing to take a lower conversion rate if it meant I was acquiring customers that would stay around 50% longer, that kind of thing.
And that's the mindset: you have to start thinking about it. It's not just about the point of sale and conversion and my CAC. It's about what's affecting my contribution margin around those customers.
Chase Clymer
Oh, I can double your conversion rate right now. Just cut your price in half.
Matthew Holman
Yeah, exactly.
But yeah, the example you mentioned is one that I love. A big shout out to Ivan Rodriguez at iHeartDogs, is a good friend of mine, has worked there for a long time. And the experiment, they were running subscriptions for a while, like a lot of brands and just collecting data. They weren't spending a ton of time on that.
But when they decided to start to dive in, they found that a lot of their complaints for people canceling were too much product. Which again, it's common across the board, too much product. But they start to go a little bit deeper, like why do you have too much product?
And so what they found was a lot of feedback from people that they didn't know what to order because dogs come in so many different sizes that people weren't sure how much they should order for their pet.
So once they started to realize that was a really common theme, they went back to their product page and they redesigned it so that you pick the size of your dog and based on the size of your dog that you pick, it basically defaulted to a different amount.
And so just making that change. Understanding what was happening on retention, they improve the conversion experience or the purchase experience. So conversions go up, right, by like 30% because they've started to speak to the customer better. And then retention goes up 40% because they've addressed the number one problem why people are turning and having too much product.
And so that's a great example of how making a design change on the experience based off of feedback from retention influences positively both acquisitions and retention.
Chase Clymer
You're just setting up these segues so well.
So talking about things that improve the experience, like what are some other ways that can improve the subscription retention?
Matthew Holman
Yeah, I think really like looking at email series is another big one. I mean, I know every brand out there is worried about not sending, and doesn't wanna send too many emails to subscribers because it sparks cancellations, which I get.
But if you look like that first week, that first seven to 10 days, that's when people are most excited about what they bought. That's your biggest opportunity to educate them.
And when I say educate, I mean like using that brew coffee experience, like it could be something as simple as explaining how you set up, how you do that, “In case you've never done it before, here's the best way to do it.”
Then I'm gonna spend time explaining to them why a brewed cup of coffee, why it tastes differently than instant or something you might get at like Starbucks or something like that.
I'm gonna share where those coffee beans come from. I'm gonna talk about my founder's story of why I was motivated to create this company and how we're changing the world with one cup of coffee. You know what I mean? So it's like thinking about those experiences. So a better welcome series around how you're like bringing people onto the subscription.
And then also with the subscription, the upcoming order notification email that everybody should be sending out legally, but a lot of brands still aren't doing that. Beefing that up a little bit too, making that feel more personal, like demonstrating value leading in the email. Just please don't make it just, “Hey, your order’s about the process. Click here to make changes.” So those are two big ones.
And then anytime I can, I also will stress collecting more data, looking at your cancellation surveys and looking at your post purchase surveys and then periodically serving your best customers. Because again, a lot of the mindset is “I want to try to fix what's wrong with retention” and not “I want to find out more about what's right.”
So I've got... Yes, I might be losing 20-30% of my subscribers in the first month or two. But I have 30-40% that are making it to a year. Okay, well, what are they liking and loving and what makes them different from the people that are leaving?
So spending more time thinking, “What can I do more for them? What would they like more of for me because they're the ones that are spending money with me?”
Chase Clymer
Absolutely. That's amazing stuff.
Now, can you remind the people that have been listening and obviously you've been sharing all of these insights about subscriptions…
How are you helping people do this? What are the ways that they can either get information from you, learn more from you, or potentially work from you? What should they do?
Matthew Holman
Yeah, absolutely. So you can reach out to me on LinkedIn, Matthew Holman The Subscription Doc or take a look at my website, thesubscriptiondoc.com.
Basically, newsletter, podcast, and then consulting. I'm happy to have conversations. We do a paid or a free audit depending on your size and what you're looking for. And then yeah, I have a lot of clients paying me monthly retainers to help them optimize their subscription program.
Chase Clymer
Awesome. Matthew, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing all those subscription insights. It was a blast.
Matthew Holman
Absolutely. Thanks, man.
Chase Clymer
We can't thank our guests enough for coming on the show and sharing their knowledge and journey with us. We've got a lot to think about and potentially add into our own business. You can find all the links in the show notes.
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